-
02/20/2012 2:11:00 PM
I've been sober since 1981, AA saved my butt, and it's the ONLY place I have to go for my recovery. Addicts dilute our meetings, and I openly tell them that as far as AA is concerned, they are free to use whatever drugs they want to use. Some, like you, believe that a drug is a drug, i.e.: alcohol, but I say that a fruit is a fruit, but try making an apple pie out of oranges! An addict going to an AA meeting is like a person going to a sushi bar for Italian spaghetti! There is a place for each individual need. NO where in any AA literature that I have read says that the AA program can be assumed for addicts as well. The BB doesn't tell us to apply the program to anything but alcohol; not over spending, drugs, gambling, over eating, sex addiction, etc. It is never mentioned that the word "drugs" can be substituted for alcohol. The BB isn't broken, it doesn't need fixing, it doesn't need any changes!
The Third Tradition tells of an alcoholic/addict that joined AA and tells that he didn't bring up his other problem again, yet did years and years of 12-step work. Like the beginning of his story he automatically assumes that his problem is worst (more stigmatized) that mine/ours is. Typical of addicts who attempt to minimize what it took for me to hit bottom and get sober. I quickly tell them that my case is worse than theirs and that they should go to NA where people are prepared to listen to them and their problems. I think that if addicts didn't think of themselves as so "worse off" and would drop discussing their "other problem" that they would be welcome in AA. But why should I have to sit there and listen to someone go on and on about something I have no experience with and that doesn't even apply to me? I get up and walk out! There goes my buck in the basket!
Yes, I am staunch AA, and I refuse to let addicts dilute my program, my meetings, or my recovery. Page 164 in the BB tells me that I can't share what I haven't experienced, and I don't blow smoke up anyone's butt in an attempt to make up something to help them (addicts) recover.
I NEED AA, and I will continue to tell addicts to either keep on using or go to NA for help. What? NA doesn't work? LOL* It would if they were as committed as we alkies are to making our program work and if they kept going back to make their meetings better for other addicts. They need to stop coming to AA meetings and trying to change everyone's mind about believing that any drug is just the same as alcohol.....IT'S NOT!
-
Trinidadmagallon 01/22/2012 11:32:00 AM
There ful of shits try na
-
Stck to what your there for 01/08/2012 3:52:00 AM
I am confused, what is a "non-alcoholic addict" doing sharing in an AA meeting?
If you are not an alcoholic, what can you share about the recovery of alcoholism?
If you have an alcohol problem, the share that in an AA meeting; if you have another problem, share that in a meeting for that problem; either NA, OA, GA or whatever.
I am in a AA meeting for alcoholism.
It would be rude of me to go to a GA meeting and share my alcohlic "war stories".
Seems simple and clear to me.
AA member and sober for 23 years.
-
05/24/2011 7:50:00 AM
Crank and Crystal Meth are the same thing and Yes during manufacturing if all of the solvents or reagents are not cleared… it is the most horrible smell. It smells of strong ammonia. Most people who manufacture the drug try to cover the smell with animal feces, manure.
Both the manufacturing and the smoking of meth has a smell. The manufacturing smell is overwhelming. You’d be able to smell it at least a few houses away.
The smell of meth smoke is much less strong. It’s smells stale and plastic-y if that makes any sense. If you’re trying to figure out if someone’s using, their behavior is more identifying. If you’re trying to conceal your use, the smell is the least of your worries, your behavior will be the give-away. I can always tell when one comes into the office. They tend to avoid eye contact, and make constant, quick jerky movements. They grind their teeth, tap their fingers, bite their nails, etc. excessively. Quick noises seem to startle them (paranoia).
Crank Addiction
-
04/14/2011 3:24:00 PM
Pointless article. I am a 'pure' alcoholic and sponsor a 'pure' alcoholic in his early twenties. Like me he can't relate to drug addicts and their experience. We never bought illicit drugs, we don't even know how. Neither of us knows what heroin in our veins feels like - nor do we care to know. It is not something I can relate to. That is why I go to AA and not NA. A drug is not a drug - acid is a hallucinogen and alcohol is a depressant. I have no interest in cocaine or speed, I needed to slow down not speed up.
Why do many drug addicts want to be in AA? Typically more sober women, men, job connections, legal help, etc. - people they can exploit, then leave. The truth is if there is no NA in the area they can to go to a place there is or start their own group. A recovered addict can go to a hospital, ask if there is anyone they can help and start an NA group. One addict relating to the other; helping each other. Isn't it about what they can contribute; not what AA can provide? As long as they can ride it out in AA they don't do that and that doesn't work for anyone.
I do think AA can do a better job working with NA, doctors and the courts to make sure addicts get to the right fellowship. Offer to take addict newcomers to an NA meeting or give them the phone number of someone in that program or help them start a group. Of course their are many 'dual addicts' in AA, who have no problem with the primary purpose, and are more than willing to assist.
-
Old Timer 12/30/2010 9:05:00 AM
I have 35 years of continuous sobriety, here in New Jersey. I have always related my drug addiction when speaking and have not had anyone tell me not to. I wouldn't listen if they did. If I did drugs illicitly, I would not be sober. My one and only slip was smoking a joint 35 years ago.
-
Happy, Joyous and Free 12/16/2010 10:53:00 PM
i have been sober in AA for over 22 years. I have always talked absolute necessity of me staying off of drugs in order to stay off of alcohol. Abstinence from drugs has EVERYTHING to do with my recovery from alcoholism. The two are infinitely intertwined, always have been and always will be. I will continue to talk about drugs at AA meetings until I die a sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous and I plan on being around another 35 or 40 years!
-
christine 11/28/2010 10:48:00 PM
I identify as an alcoholic and an addict. I believe alcohol is a drug. My ID story involves both alcohol and marijuana, i cannot share only part of my story, this would be false. My first relapse with alcohol was due to not giving up marijuana. I don't believe a person can say they are living sober when they are not being honest about their drug use. Part of being honest about their drug use, may mean sharing about it in aa meeting.
-
Sean T. 08/18/2010 12:40:00 AM
P. S. I am surprised General Services even talked to you. We really shouldn't be commenting on outside issues, and, despite what anyone thinks, how drug users (who may or may not be alcoholics too) feel about AA is an outside issue.
-
Sean T. 08/18/2010 12:37:00 AM
The main purpose of AA is for us to live sober and carry the message to the still suffering "alcoholic". It doesn't matter if 99.9% of members used drugs and are also alcoholics, we have to discuss our alcohol problems just in case an alcoholic who never did any drugs walks through the door. If he or she can't relate to AA than we all have failed.
-
smokeytownson@gmail.com 07/18/2010 5:47:00 AM
Good luck to all NA's.
AA is for AA's.
Pure and simple.
Even if there are only two of us left. It is
the Alcoholics survival tool.
Quit trying to wreck our program. You and the treatment centers have done enough damage already.
~Smokey
-
Ellen Lee 07/17/2010 11:02:00 PM
I'm sorry that I have to disagree with your post regarding problems other than alcohol, because I don't usually like to engage in controversy. But by saying that the Traditions are irrelevant today and that AA should accommodate people who's main problem is drug addiction and who are not alcoholics is an issue that causes problems within AA. Alcoholics Anonymous is just that: A program for alcoholics. There are other 12-Step programs for those whose problems are "other than alcohol" - NA, CA, OA, you name it. Alcoholics Anonymous was created to solve the problem of alcoholism; nowhere does it claim to be the solution for other addictions, and in fact, it denies that completely. The main consideration in AA needs to be for the newcomer. If the newcomer is an alcoholic who has no problems with drugs, etc., then he/she cannot identify with the drug addict's story, or the overeater's story, etc. Meetings are held for the alcoholic newcomer. Remember the most important Tradition is about our primary purpose: To carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers". Not to the drug addict who still suffers, etc. I'm sorry if this sounds exclusionary, but diluting the message of AA will lead only to its deterioration, dilution, and eventually irrelevancy. Please check into the other 12-Step programs for help with other addictions.
Thanks,
Ellen
-
dave 07/09/2010 8:28:00 AM
I am a member of AA and have been sober for 19 years, have attended AA through out that period, and would probably have been dead long ago if it wasn't for AA.
________________________________________________
The following quote is from "Alcoholism: recent advances in epidemiology, biochemistry and genetics.
Bratisl Lek Listy."
_______________________________-
"Dependence on alcohol is multifactorial and is related to a complex interplay of metabolic, genetic, social and environmental factors. Repetitive alcohol ingestion and its resulting dependence is associated with false euphoria triggered by an inhibition of glutamate receptors and other brain neurotransmitters, namely dopamine and serotonine."
___________________________________________________
My point in quoting this here is to show that one of the basic premises of this article is incorrect. There are scientifically provable differences between addiction to alcohol and addiction to other substances.
______________________________________________-
Here are some other traditions so that tradition 5 can be put in context and better understood.
"tradition 2—For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
Tradition 3 — The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.
Four—Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.
__________________________________________________________
To explain this to anybody who can't figure it out on their own the General Service Office has virtually no authority over what goes on in individual AA meetins. The group conscience of each meeting determines whether or not discussion of drugs is allowed. I haven't been to an AA meeting in years where talk about drugs isn't allowed. In fact people are encouraged to bring the topic up if a drug issue is jeopardizing their sobriety. One of current sponsees considers himself a marijuana addict but does not consider himself alcoholic at this time but has a desperate desire to stop drinking since if he gets caught drinking he will end up back in jail.
I went to NA fairly regularly early in my sobriety, and still attend once in awhile, but stopped attending regularly when it became clear to me that, in the N.A. meetings near to where I lived, advice on how to actually work all 12 steps was not going to be readily available. NA, from everything I've seen and been told, still has not managed to build up a large base of people who still attend meetings, have been clean for a long period of time, and know how to guide a newcomer through the 12 steps. As a result of this many many people who think of some other drug as their main drug of choice stop attending NA meetings and only attend AA meetings. I don't know anybody who's ever gone the other direction.
-
Jimmy 03/14/2010 7:36:00 AM
Oh I dont know about the closed mindid thing in aa, i here about other substances in meetings, ofcourse you have your opinionated aholes in every meeting, its just as bad in na when drinking is discussed, outa respect, in a aa meeting im an alcoholic, in a na meeting im an addict, hopefully someone took the time after that meeting just mentioned, to put that fire out, our meetings here are fairly liberal, sometimes a chairperson takes the 5th to hart, unwitingly ruffuling feathers, again some na meetings are just as bad. Oh and Rx meds have caused a great meany alcholics to relaps.
-
michael h. 02/03/2010 2:45:00 PM
Hi everyone, I find this article quiet interesting to say the least. The reason being " But for the Grace of God" I going on twenty-one years in recovery in ( N.A.),Yet grateful for the fellowship of (A.A.)As a newcomer I did,nt know about the (12 tradictions) moreless knowingly what was appropriate and not appropriate as to when I mustered up enough courage to speak in the (A.A)meeting. Thank 'GOD' for those understanding members at that time of my recovery (PROCESS),Allowed me to be a newcomer, Meaning how could have I,ve known what to say or what not to say because who cares I was hurting,confused and full of fear.No one at the meeting scolded me nor singled me out in front of everyone as to embarassed me, that would,ve probably made the difference of me being ever given any (12 step)fellowship an opportunity to work in my life. It was truly over time and not over night that I learned that going to both ( A.A. and N.A.)meetings that I was being drawn more so to (N.A), NOT because of somuch as the drinking etc. But because of the indentification I listen to from the members sharing their feelings and thoughts as a direct result of whatever their personal choice drugs or drug includeing alcohol because alcohol is a drug. This conclude my personal comment based upon personal experience on this matter, The only thing that comes out of me is that which is down in me, As a newcomer their was,nt a whole lot in me for I was spiritually,emotionally and physically bankrupt. What about you can you identify? We must always do our best to practice Principals Before Personalities (PBPWMGIFWMY)= PLEASE BE PATIENT WITH ME GOD ISN,T FINISH WITH ME YET)Nor the Newcomers!
-
Roberto H. 01/28/2010 6:56:00 PM
As an active member of A.A. I have the double stigma but then! I can do, where I go, to turn to whom?.
Roberto H.
-
Chia Jen 01/11/2010 5:21:00 AM
Fascinating article and full of issues to give all the 12 step Fellowships something to think about as we move into the 21st century. I have no doubt that neither the founder members of AA, nor later on NA had any idea that the cultural, social and socio-economic changes that have developed over the last 50 years would have such an impact on their desire to "carry the message to the still suffering alcoholic/addict".
I have been in recovery from active addiction in the UK for a little over 17 years now and found that recovery in the rooms of both AA & NA without which I would most probably have been long dead.
I make no distinction between my use of either Alcohol or Drugs as both fulfilled a purpose in that they alleviated in me the fear of facing myself and living life on life�s terms.
In the early days of my recovery with no regular NA meetings available for me to attend I choose to go to many AA meetings and indeed took on service posts within that fellowship and got elected to both Chair and represent my AA home group at the local Intergroup.
During that time I did encounter the kind of prejudices talked about in the article from both old timers and newcomers alike but I have to attest that instances of that were rare. I never hid the fact that I was both an Addict and an Alcoholic and gained much identification from members of AA relating to the feelings about why I used any mood altering substance and my compulsion to continue to do so until a state of oblivion had been reached.
I agree in principle that not everyone who either takes a drink or a drug is likely to develop a psychological addiction to it and that any individual who takes heroin or crack often enough will develop physical dependencies but I disagree that alcohol is devoid of being physically addictive.
I have learnt over the years that it is was not my drug of choice that is the problem but the innate need I have to anesthetise myself from the world. For me it was not the first drink or drug I took but my reason to take the second that kick started the disease of addiction in me and that once that cycle had begun I was powerless to stop it.
I do take exception to the comments made here that Junkies are inherently lazy, as suggested by one of the commentators and that they are out to usurp AA.
In response to a lack of NA meetings hundreds of addicts have started meetings from one side of the globe to another and continue to top so at an exponential rate. I have personally started groups in both England and Scotland in response to my living in areas where NA has had no previous presence.
Castigating addicts in this way does not serve the representatives of the old school of AA well at all and in fact goes a long way to vindicating the opinions expressed in the article.
The 12 step programs of AA & NA originating as they do from the heartland of the United States and in particular AA are couched in what has become an anachronistic and largely Christian language form that no longer adequately address those who they wish to reach.
Although NA, despite internal unwillingness and opposition at times over the years do seem to be addressing this issue with more alacrity than AA who appear to be entrenched in the belife that nothing should be changed of the words of their founders.
An enigma from those that advocate change as being the way forward to alieviate the aflictions of Alcoholism and Addiction.
Perhaps in conclusion it would be moot to point out that an entity like AA amongst whose guiding principles are the concepts of compassion, understanding and tolerance might look to those principles if they wish to flourish and maintain their credibility in a changing world.
-
Boe Beauchamp 01/10/2010 9:00:00 PM
I especially enjoyed this article as it pertains to what some of us were discussing just this morning with regard to the use of coffee, cigarettes and refined sugar as "drugs".
I found your article to be factual.
I identify as a recovering addict. I have been "clean" for well over 23 years and recovering with Narcotics Anonymous. Why? Simple really, it's because I identify with the language of NA. When I came in, you would have been challenged to convince me that I had a problem with alcohol. I drank a beer every six months and a bottle of wine about once a month. Alcohol was never my drug of choice - I didn't want to be an alcoholic like some others I knew (one of whom was a member of my family).
I however quickly came to realize that I did not have a drug problem either. I had all kinds of drugs, that wasn't the problem. What I had was a living problem or a problem with living life on life's terms. Essentially I came from living a life as a problem in search of a place to happen and eventually found place and a viable solution to who I was - an addict. By definition, an addict is a man or a woman for whom drugs had become a major problem. An addict uses people, places and things to fill an interior void. The obsessive and compulsive need to "fill that void" is what makes me an addict. We come to believe or discover that the solution to our dis - ease is "spiritual in nature".
I know and understand that the supreme court has ruled that AA and other such 12 Step programs are "religious in nature" but, what is a religion? I suppose I could conclude that the atheist's belief in "non belief" is by it's own nature, a religion. I sponsor a few who identify themselves as "atheists" and they are doing quite well thank you. They have made the distinction between "religion" and "spirituality"
One of your commentators, I believe his name is Ron, seems to have a very limited, if not defensive, position and understanding on "alcoholism / addiction" etc and yet he fails to answer the question of why does an addict /alcoholic choose to pick up that first drink or fix in the first place? - If you don't see the problem - perhaps you don't have the problem so how can you possibly presume to have an informed or intelligent opinion on it?
AA, NA, CA, GA, OA and every other 12 Step Fellowship in existence have their place in our society as an entry point to the world of recovery. They each serve a purpose allowing their members to identify with what they initially may be believe their common point of origin. In my case, it was the question "Do I have a drug problem?" This question brought me to NA following my last attempted suicide in March of 86.
Anyway, I just wanted to thank you for your article and will forward it on to my contact list.
ILS
Boe
-
Laura H. 01/04/2010 2:40:00 AM
Yes there are similarities to the sufferings of Alcoholics & Addicts but to say that they are the same disease is completely inaccurate. I am a young person in AA and for a while believed I was cross addicted, as I have a history of drug & alcohol abuse. The difference I learned many years later in AA. When I made up my mind to quit using drugs on my own WILL Power, I was successful. However, when I made up my mind to quit using alcohol on my own WILL power, I failed again and again. It was later explained to me in a very loving and kind way, the difference between addicts and alcoholics-which is primarily physical. The example: If you put a 100 random people in a room and pump them full of an addictive drug such as cocaine or heroin, they will ALL eventually develop an addiction to that substance b/c it is the nature of that substance. In contrast, if you take that same group of people, put them in a room and pump them full of alcohol, most will end up with hangovers, however, only SOME will become alcoholics. Why? Because it is the nature of the alcoholic. Not the substance. I encourage you to study the history of how AA came to be and the failure of the groups before which failed because they found something that worked and wanted to be all things to all people. The reason why AA has not be growing as quickly as it had in the past is because the message has been diluted (watered down) over the years due to influx of treatment lingo, courts referring people to the wrong groups and people who believe that it doesn't matter what we talk about in AA. People are sponsoring people by giving their opinions instead of sticking to the basics which are described in the Big Book. There is a very good reason why the sister 12-Step groups were formed a long time ago, and I don't know why their membership isn't as large as AA, but that should be no reason to want to combine it all and turn it into an All-Afflicted recovery program. Imagine if that were to happen...we would have alcoholics, addicts, sex addicts, gambling addicts, over-eaters, co-dependents, you could increase the list at infinitum...all sharing about their problems in one room for one hour. What the hell would be the topic? And could we all truly relate to each individuals specific problem? I am so grateful that there is a 12 Step program specifically tailored to meet our individual problems. However, history tells us that trying to be all things to all people (although altruistic) does not work. We have to stick to what we know best. And stick to what works. AA would have better success rates if the message stayed clear. NA would have better attendance rates if they stopped going to AA meetings in liue of NA (unless of course they are also Alcoholic). I don't have a problem not sharing about my drug use in AA meetings. When I am asked to share my story, I explain how I used any other substance I could get my hands on to help me change how I felt when I was sober. But I also describe what happens to me once I injest alcohol and how I have a different reaction to it than non-alcoholics. After the AA meeting, and on my own time I will discuss in more detail the extent of my drug use if I feel it's necessary. My homegroup of young people in AA feel strongly about this issue, and yes, most of us have an extensive drug use history but all of us are alcoholics who know the difference.
Laura H.
Downtown Young & Sober
Norfolk, VA
-
Phil 12/11/2009 7:36:00 AM
This article takes the old problem of citing sources that are not alcoholics as proof that there is a problem with AA. A doctor who says that alcohol is the same as other substances probably never was an alcoholic or ever tried other drugs. As a member of AA who has used other substance I can assure you that they are psychologically and physiologically very different. The author should go to NA, CA, or the other 300 plus 12 Step programs to talk about addiction other than alcohol. Sad that she would drive alcoholics out of the rooms of AA because she is unwilling to start an NA group. The fact is that addicts do very well in groups SPECIFIC TO THEIR ADDICTION. What is scary is the lack of care for the people she is willing to drive from the AA rooms (alcoholics) in order to fix her problem. It is easier for addicts to take over AA meetings rather than start their own meetings; I have observed this over the past 20 years. That lack of ambition, to cut corners, to be lazy, is in fact a fundamental characteristic of the drug addict vs. alcoholics. Untreated alcoholics are mean, cranky, ill at ease vs. the dopers who are generally more relaxed when the come into the rooms of AA Then you will see the difference in a year or two. The true drug addicts never get better at AA; they form cliques of other addicts in the AA rooms, they will use each for sex, money, et. Finally they will either relapse. To the author I say: �Start your own 12 step program and quit being so lazy�. Addicts in AA die rather than help themselves; years of experience have proven this to be true.
-
Ron 07/31/2009 11:56:00 PM
I would like to see an article Unmasking AA/NA and the 12 Step Cultism. Recent US Federal Courts have ruled these programs are in fact religious. Persons with DUI and other related convictions are required to attend AA/NA. This violates separation, making AA/NA the new state sponsored religion. Isn't anyone concerned about this? Especially since the success rate of either of these programs is equal to no treatment at all. Addiction is not a disease, its a choice. A behavior. No where in the Big Book of AA does it state that the cause of alcoholism is the drinking of alcohol. Are we on the same planet? If you don't want to be a crack addict, stop smoking crack. What causes someone to be addict to heroin? Using heroin! True science changes with the times. AA being a religion hasn't change. It is a cult that sells itself by the media writing all these feel good story's. I have to wonder how many people have killed themselves thinking they had an incurable disease as AA/NA tells them they have. "There is no know cure..."
~Ron
-
Anthony Mann 05/26/2008 10:23:00 PM
Wow! What an eye opener this article is I guess once again I am blessed to live in Cincinnati where in my experiance old timers are mixed and it seems as though the liberal minded old timers out number the more conservative members. While we new comers suffer from the experiance that some of these members could share with us, we are benefitted by the thought that we all are welcome and open to share where we are, I being dually addicted to alcohol,crack, heroin or whatever else is availabe had waffled between the two programs ( N.A. / A.A.) for well over 18 years have finally found my home in A.A. just celebrating 20 months of (609 days) of complete abstinance from any booze or drug. I am currently the Intergroup alternate of my home group ( Fairfield Breakfast Group) EAT at 8:30 A.M at IHOP on Kemper Rd. meet at Tri-county small room at 9:45 A.M. to 11:00 A.M. every sunday morning) co-chair of our annual intergroup alkathon for the 2007-2008 and all know of my dual addiction as I share frequently as its how I've found I can stay here sober. I understand the purist, and also understand what the Big Book states as Our main purpose as recovering alcoholics is to be of "Maximum Service To GOD and our FELLOWMAN" funny someone chose not say our fellow alcoholic? Thank God that he is in control and with that thought A.A. will be alright!
