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Dear Dan

More Savage Love letters about bestiality and Dan's response to RUFF

I love your column, and I appreciate that you continually stand up for the oppressed, the repressed, and those who just need a little push to get out there and live how they really want (and often need) to.

But I couldn’t help but cringe at a recent letter from RUFF and at your advice that (while you reiterate that “Bestiality is wrong, wrong, wrong, because an animal cannot give its consent”) RUFF go get that house with a big yard and take his animal loving inside. I actually agree with your assertion that those of us who implicitly condone cruelty to animals by supporting industries that torture and kill them for food and clothing have little room to bash dog fuckers (or, as seems to be the case here, dog fuckees). Still, I think you’d have done well to suggest that RUFF see the shrink FIRST and consider getting the house down the road.

Whether you wanted to or not, your suggestion that RUFF go out and get the house and yard (regardless of how many ellipses you use in your sentences to express your discomfort with the issue) suggests that secretive dog fucking is somehow okay. This, of course, stands in direct opposition to your statement that dog fucking isn’t cool.

Anyway, Dan, I’m normally right there with you on matters of sexual difference, but do you honestly think that this guy (all of 25 years old) couldn’t use a little therapy? If for no other reason than to work through something that is causing him pain? I say, suggest the dude go to a fucking shrink! And after a few months, if he still pitches a tent every time he sees that Irish wolfhound in the dog park, perhaps then he could start saving for that house.
— Not Accepting of Dog Sex


Might there be another option for RUFF besides a life alone or screwing dogs?

Perhaps he could consider “dating furries”? Or am I just naive to think that someone dressed up as a dog would, err, get his motor running?
— JB


I read your advice for RUFF and quite honestly I don’t know where to begin analyzing it ethically. But from a practical standpoint, there are potential dangers in attempting to be fucked by a dog. If this dude is really looking to be penetrated (and not just the old “oops, I spilled peanut butter on my crotch” trick), he should be aware that during intercourse, a gland at the base of the dog’s penis swells. It’s called the bulbus glandis, and the purpose is to lock the dog’s penis inside the bitch’s vagina during the entirety of mating, since canine ejaculation comes in three stages which can take 20–30 minutes or longer to complete. If you’ve ever seen two dogs walking around like they’re conjoined at the butt, that’s what’s going on. They literally cannot separate themselves!

Now, I have no idea whether this would happen during penetration of a human anus, but I see no reason why it wouldn’t. The potential for physical damage here alarms me, especially since you can’t communicate with a dog the way you can with another person about going slower, being gentle, etc. And imagine if something did go wrong and you were “tied” to the dog for a half hour or more. Ugh, you know what: Don’t imagine it. Just let RUFF know that what you think he’s thinking about doing is, besides being ethically dubious at best, a potential emergency-room nightmare waiting to happen.
— Loves Dogs And Healthy Anuses


While you claim you’re against screwing animals since it is clearly nonconsensual, you then give Ruff the go ahead, by justifying it on grounds that society at large already treats animals like so much dirt. So rather than you challenging yourself to exchange the tortured factory-farmed meat you eat in favor of free-range meat or, god forbid, even reduce or eliminate meat from your diet, you’d go with “two wrongs make a right.”

While you can claim some authority on sex advice, you’re clearly out of your range when it comes to ethical issues such as animal cruelty or environmental issues such as eating factory-farmed meat. But hey, as long as we’re all happy indulging our sexual appetites, who cares about the suffering and environmental damage that will destroy life on earth as we know it, within a matter of only a few generations.
—Screw The Planet


Instead of acting this out, I think the guy with the dog fetish should see a sex-positive psychodynamic therapist. Why? Because I disagree with your belief that fetishes cannot be changed. They can.

While most fetishes add to the vast and stunning variety of sex to enjoy, those that are nonconsensual, or carry unacceptable dangers, or, in RUFF’s case, prison and/or living an extremely isolated life, may be better left in fantasy. Or better, explored to see how they come to play such a key role in our sexual responses.

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  • Bollocks 11/30/2010 11:31:00 AM

    Far be it from me to suggest anyone get a life. However, reading up on a subject and finding out more about it makes one better informed to resist casting the first stone. For those think they know it all, read this. As a political prisoner within the U.S. federal prison system, I am asked from time to time what my "cause" is. After all, the very definition of a political prisoner is that they are imprisoned as a result of their political opinions or activities. And, while it's simple to see that I'm imprisoned as a result of my opinions and activism, it's less easy to say in a short phrase what exactly my activism, academic research, and political outreach entails. Thus, I'm seeking to outline the basics. Right off the bat, it is clear that the central organizing focus of my political activities doesn't really fit into any pre-defined "cause" that's well-known (and already conveniently labeled). This doesn't just reflect a lack of comfort on my part in identifying with some existing "cause" or "movement" - rather, it's a direct result of the multi-disciplinary, multi-sourced, multi-constituent nature of my work and activism. While I know I'm not the only person working on these issues worldwide - far from it - I also don't know of any convenient banner under which I can comfortably stand. Hopefully, in due course, such a banner will manifest itself - though I don't think it's for me to float convenient identifying phrases or catchy "marketing slogans," I'm also not against settling into a chosen nomenclature if it presents itself. In the event, the shortest form I can come up with is as follows: my activist work is aimed squarely at dismantling the Solipsistic Fallacy (as I've labeled it). Further, my activist work supports the celebration of true diversity of sentient experience - with no specific centrality given to exclusively human concerns, perspectives, or assumptions relative to larger questions of general sentience. Indeed, the core of my academic work lies in finding the surprising - and central - role that cross-species empathetic social bonding has played throughout the history of the evolution of the human species. To be human is to be able to form empathetic bonds with the "Other" - there was no time in the existence of the species H. sapiens during which we've not been intimately bonded with our symbiotic partner species (i.e. canines). What is the Solipsistic Fallacy? Simply put, it's the near-universal assumption that the human perspective is the central, sole, or most privileged perspective on all questions of fundamental intellectual importance. It's the knee-jerk assumption that human needs are the only really important needs, that humans are the only species that "really matters," and that human sentience is the pinnacle of evolutionary history on our planet - and likely anywhere in the universe. Basically, it's the all-too-human tendency to gaze lovingly at our navels (or our reflections in the mirror) and, entranced, tell ourselves stories about how wonderful, wise, smart, and courageous we are. It's a recursive logical fallacy of the worst sort: we're human, and since we are defining our own terms, we'll just define "what matters" as the things that matter on a human scale... then we turn around, ask ourselves to cast our minds out into the deeper questions which surround us, and - not surprisingly - find that our very defintions of "what matters" have already been, a priori, structured to emphasize human centrality, privilege human concerns, and reinforce the assumption that humans are the apex of existence. The Solipsistic Fallacy has deep roots, particularly within Western historical traditions. It traces back through religious threads, economic threads, political threads, academic threads, and cultural threads... indeed it's sometimes hard to find anywhere within Western discourse that the Fallacy isn't all but omnipresent. Irrespective of it's near-ubiquity, it's still the shoddiest form of intellectual vacuity. It's dumb, it's pathetic, it's counter-scientific, and indeed it's entirely counter-factual. So, at that level it is the Fallacy against which my academic and activist work is targeted. On a personal level, my engagement with these questions goes back to my earliest recollections. Always, in my life, it's been self-evident to me that the human perspective is merely ONE amongst many. As a young child, the things I learned from - and relationships I built with - sentient critters of other species were as important to me (and often, more important to me) than those I developed with my fellow 2-leggers. I never questioned whether these nonhuman colleagues of mine "had feelings," or "could think," or "were conscious" - even the most rudimentary observations of them, and interactions with them on a social basis, showed that they differ from us 2-leggers in degree, not in kind, at the most fundamental level. They think. They feel. They plan. They remember. They love. They learn. They are not "like" us - we all have differences; but, they are alike enough to be part of our social world, and that was always both true for me personally, and obvious to me in terms of empirical reality. Who could really argue this point? Into my teenage years, I was deeply moved by Dr. Peter Singer's writing in "Animal Liberation" - here was someone (and later a movement, i.e. Animal Rights) which respected the rest of the sentient living world on its own merits. It challenged the basis that humans are entitled to "use" other living things, free of any care or concern for their well-being in the process. Animal Rights opened my eyes to the injustices all around me, and forced me to see how I fit into those larger societal processes of subjugation and horrific mistreatment of nonhumans. I joined PETA before I turned 16, and I still consider myself - proudly so - to be a member in good standing of the Animal Rights movement. {part 3 of 4} From there, I expanded into concepts of deep ecology. If embracing the "agency rights" of other living critters was a first step forward for me, then recognizing the centrality of ecological-level considerations was a natural next step forward. The human ability to utterly devastate entire ecosystems - to cause permanent species extinctions, to destroy entire webs of interconnected life, wholly and forever - is a terrible thing. The fact that our species has been blithely comfortable engaging in such wanton destruction - helped along enormously by our cleverness with technology, at an ever-accelerating rate - has continued to both surprise and disgust me. It's such a basic concept, if only out of pure self-interest: foul your own nest, and you sleep in shit. How can humans not recognize this simple wisdom, which any other species seems unable to ignore even if they desired? From these experiences and considerations, I moved into the fold of the Earth First! community in the late 1980s, doing my part - via direct action, in the field - to help tip the scales in the Old Growth Wars of the Pacific Northwest. During those years, I dove deep into the literature of environmentalism, saw what worked and what didn't, and participated in events and gatherings that exposed me to a broad swath of environmental thought. I consider myself, again, to be a member of the environmental movement - proudly so. I've continued to support the hands-on activism of today's young generations of Earth First!ers - via cash donations, assistance with technology tools, and organizational support. And yet... From the perspective of both the environmental community, and the Animal Rights community... something's missing, for me. At one edge of the spectrum, AR shades off into a self-forced rejection of the kinds of bonds between humans and nonhumans that have always been the centrepiece of my own life. "Domesticated species" (a term whose very snootiness belies its rotten intellectual roots) are denounced as mere echoes of human domination, despite ever-increasing evidence that the symbiotic bonds between humans and canines (as well as, more recently, equines) are co-evolutionary in nature, reciprocal in form, and far more complex than some simplistic dominance/submission model could ever capture. Environmentalism runs the risk of sliding down slippery slopes towards a repudation of, for example, ownership of horses because of their "environmental impact" - missing the deeper point of how essential it is for our species to keep every available bond with the rest of the living world, lest we lose ourselves entirely in our self-absorbed fascination with our navels. I don't reject either movement, not at all. I support them, and always will. I simply know that something's missing. That's where my own work has evolved, over the last 20 years or so. I've dug into fields as diverse as cognitive ethology, systems science, cultural anthropology, computer science/artificial intelligence, neurophysiology, forensic archaeology, and cross-species psychology in my search for new, more-integrated, more-wholistic ways to see humanity as part of the larger web of living, breathing, feeling, thinking critters who share our Earth (and perhaps other planets - and other substrates, e.g. silicon-based - in due course). In this research, I've come to the conclusion that there's a deep genetic reservoir within human beings, a reservoir of capacity for empathetic social bonding with the "Other." Some of us - and yes I'm quite sure I am part of this group - manifest this latent genetic capacity in what I've come to call "Deep Symbiosis." Deep Symbionts are engaged in the creation of reciprocal, mutually-beneficial, emotionally integrated relationships that span across the mammalian species. These relationships, I argue, are qualitatively different from that to be found when humans interact with "domesticated livestock," or indeed "pets" in the conventional uses of that word. Relationships built on a foundation of Deep Symbiosis resonate with a fundamentally bi-directional, reciprocal respect; neither one nor the other partner in the relationship is "superior" or "primary" - indeed the use of such slavery-based terms in discussing "pets" is certainly indicative of the presence of deeply-held assumptions about human superiority, viz. the Solipsistic Fallacy. A Deep Symbiont opens herself up to a genuine and intentional intertwining with "the Other" - with someone who is alike, but not like us... who can bond empathetically with us, but who is not merely a reflection of our own self-assumptions. Whatever percentage of us manifest our genetic heritage through a primary bonding with non-human partners - and, again, I'm certainly part of that percentage - it's entirely clear from all available data that we're to be found in every human society, in ever human culture, and throughout all recorded human history. Indeed, I have concluded that there is no such thing as "Homo sapiens" without this empathetic capacity; our very capabilities with technological tools, our complex social arrangements within-species, and our proclivity for scientific inquiry that forces us to expand our perspective beyond our own little worldviews (however limited we may be in generalizing those perspective shifts, and thus overcoming the Solipsistic Fallacy for good)... these are all deeply connected, at a neurophysical level, with the same genetic components that make Old Blood who we are. In the course of these investigations, explorations, and often-blind perigrinations through all manner of subcultures, groups, movements, and cliques, I have come into contact with individuals (and communities) who have helped me enormously to define my questions, expand my assumptions, correct errors in expectation, and overall to successfully pull on the right strings to continue forward in my explorations. Some of those communities are shrouded in controversy and subject to massive persecution: I'd say that's common to Deep Symbionts in general, and dates back through centuries of witch-burnings and mob rejection of those of us who are just different enough (and misunderstood enough) to be frightening to conventional society. The zoophile community is certainly another example - and an example that I have concluded is, in fact, a subset of the larger category of Deep Symbionts (to use my chosen nomenclature). I've not been afraid to interface with such communities, to learn from them, to earn their trust by being trustworthy, and to take their wisdom as what it is: unique, genuine, and powerful. I've also, to be clear, never shied away from aiming criticism where I feel criticism is due; anyone in the larger Deep Symbiosis community who knows of me, and my involvement with same, over the past 15 or so years will certainly attest to that fact. Any time I've come across abusive practices, attitudes, or assumptions by humans against nonhumans, I have acted to the best of my ability to halt those abuses. I always will. Conversely, I haven't been conned into fake claims of "abuse" that have nothing to do with actual harm to actual nonhumans - and are, ironically, merely reflective of the rot that comes from knee-jerk assumptions of human centrality. A good friend of mine once commented on how bizarre it is to see such sanctimonious rantings from people who are quite happy to kill and eat (or have others do the killing; same thing) living, feeling, breathing fellow sentient critters; hypocrisy of the most pure sort. He speaks true, and his wisdom speaks to the deep fractures amongst these competing worldviews. For me, I stand utterly firmly on one side of that line: I see the beauty, promise, power, and joy in the human species as a whole (and in individual 2-leggers); at the same time, I see other beauties, other wisdoms, other lessons, other joys OUTSIDE our species. I embrace that otherness, and I know that it is a central part of humanity to seek that embrace - Deep Symbiont, or Normal, alike. What is this "cause" called? I don't know - but I do know it's my life's work. /s/ Douglas Bryan LeConte-Spink co-founder, Baneki Privacy Computing, Inc. founder, Deep Symbiosis Institute founder, Exitpoint Stallions Limitee

  • michael 03/23/2008 11:46:00 PM

    Dan, I really enjoy your column, first it looks like there is no spell check, so I am sorry about the mispelling that will happen. Anyway I've been thinking a lot about the man that wrote in about his wife no longer having her breast because of cancer. I thought what do breast mean to me, in a sexual way. For me the pleasure of seeing, touching, kissing, and sucking a woman's breast is emotional not physcial. That a woman would allow, want me to touch her breast means that she has deep feelings of affection for me. Of course I hope she enjoys having her breasts touched. But she feels attrached to me, she likes me, she has affection for me. She desires a deeper level of intimacy with me and I want there with her. I know sometimes people just want sex but that hasn't been my experience. This man's wife is showing him that she desires a level of intimacy perhaps even deeper then it was at the begining. I understand, like you, that it would be hard our sexual desires are in part visonal. I too get turned on by what I see and it would be hard to be feel desire without seeing the breasts. I think I would recommend that they start by cuddling, touching, hugging with there cloths on. Express there affection by touching. May be it would turn into some more passionite touching. She does feel and desires his intimacy, and he seems to want to give her that. So start slow, learn to enjoy touching. Neck like you did in high school, see what happens.

  • Joel 02/22/2008 9:19:00 AM

    As a life-long zoophile who started pre-puberty, I can attest that dogs certainly DO consent to sex and even initiate it. People have this crazy idea that animals are non sexualized, human children with long body hair and a tail, who can't think for themselves or know what they want! Nothing is further from the truth. Even basic biology knowledge proves that mammals all posess the same reproductive equipment- including orgasm (this includes female animals who like women, are multi-orgasmic) I disagree with sending the chap to the beastforum site, most web sites about this are nothing more than commercial porn sites, real zoophiles don't need porn, it's insulting! GO, read the lengthy and well detailed wikipedia document on zoophilia; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia The article includes discussions on consent issues and much more. It is also of interest to note that yes, while male dogs can injure a man anally if one is not careful and reads up on the precautions, not all male zoophiles even have anal contact at all. I happen to prefer oral sex both giving and receiving as well as vaginal intercourse. Of interest I should note, is that a case involving a horse that every reader knows about in Washington state, the police poured over hundreds of hours of videos made there looking for something, anything with which to charge those involved with animal abuse. Guess what, they were unable to find ANYTHING in the tapes or with any injuries on animal at the farm- this included dogs. A veterinarian also was unable to find any injuries. In the end the best they could do is charge the men with tresspassing. The published fact that NO animals were injured or mistreated, as proven by veterinay examinations and the police viewing hundreds of hours of videos made there shows that zoophilia is not about abuse or rape, and that animals are not injured unless the person does it accidentally or on purpose for sadistic reasons. Again, animals are not children, pedophilia and zoophilia are not even remotely associated with each other.

  • Laura 02/15/2008 2:27:00 AM

    Good call on the fisting & fibromyalgia letter. I have fibromyalgia (don't know how I got it, can't claim any colorful precipitant, it set in during a period of intense stress, as is usual). But I hope to see the illness accepted as a real medical problem that deserves effective treatment, and far-fetched lawsuits of the kind this person was contemplating won't help in that aim.

 

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