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09/11/2011 10:50:00 PM
The point is These So-called Hipsters and Yuppies are not "Hip!" At all. They don't know a scintilla about the NYC LES History, And, That Tenement Museum On Orchard St. Knows really Zilch about the real LES.
I've resided there growing up over 50 yrs ago. The Chinese IMO, Are a heck of a lot Hipper and Smarter than these Jack-Asses. That take about a half an hr. To dictate one sentence and, it still doesn't make any sense at all.
re: Conformity. The Hipster/Yuppies. Are the real Comformists You can spot them a mile away.
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08/17/2011 6:13:00 AM
(edit).
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Keith 05/19/2010 2:17:00 AM
Pip- Race is only an issue in this article because the author made it one. My point was not 'bashing' (your word) but to point out a similar situaton that the author should have referenced that happened in the past in the EV so that this article could be more balanced and focused to be about people with MONEY and different attitudes (regardless of race) who push out others.
Need further clarification? Take out the words "hipster" and "Chinese" and replace them with "twenty-somethings" and "long-term residents" and this article will be a much less venomous (and probably boring) article. Also, when you DO replace those words, this article then could have been written 10 years ago when the monied "Hoshimoto" resident before you bumped out that "Reyes", "Miller", or "Washington" tenant from the EV.
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Pip 05/18/2010 10:30:00 PM
Keith-
Thanks for simplifying this conversation about the complexities and nuances of urban cultural clashes into a diatribe about race. I really wouldn't have appreciated the article otherwise. It doesn't matter that these Chinese families are holding on to a way of life that is slipping away from them (which they have every right to do so), or that these young art students are just trying to find a good deal on rent so they can embark on their careers and have productive lives (which they have every right to do so), or that these battles are being instigated by real estate companies trying to maximize revenue from the capital they have put into their investments (which they have every right to do so). No, none of that is interesting nor matters. The issue truly at hand, as you so astutely brought to light, is making sure we go tit for tat with a race argument. If we mention white folks in a negative light, we better make damn sure we insult some Asians too.
Oh, and as an Asian-equivalent college type from NYU, I do apologize for pushing out the white tenants that lived in my apartment before me (white people have the last name Hoshimoto, right?). My bad.
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Chris 05/17/2010 9:45:00 PM
Dave C:
So the new people are so bad that you are yearning for the years, and I will quote you," back when the LES was a sh*8hole of drugs and violence"?! ....Back when local thugs and junkies ran amok, instilled fear, and shot up everything and everyone?...That's better?! WTF?!Do you fear the new people? Probably not. The new people are most likely more annoying than threatening so be glad for how things turned out in that neighborhood.
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Davec 05/17/2010 12:05:00 AM
I am Asian as well, 35+ year resident of the Lower East Side. Our building was predominately Chinese, back when the LES was a sh*8hole of drugs and violence. We are family people, stick pretty much to ourselves. We've witnessed the majority of Asians in the building leave (for one reason or another). The apartments are then renovated and then rented to yuppies/rich brats whose only joy in life is getting stone ass drunk six days a week. There are raucous parties even on Sunday nights where all the working stiffs in the building are subjected to non stop noise and music. I have never seen such selfish, inconsiderate behavior. And sadly, it seems to be the rule not the exception. Why don't the rich scum show a little respect before the start belittling what they don't understand. And btw, we keep our doors closed, when cooking, don't talk loudly in the hall, and don't spit either.
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J 05/10/2010 9:46:00 PM
Elizabeth Dwoskin - Thank you so much for this article. My parents immigrated here from China in the 1980's, and we lived in what is now considered Nolita. The area as it is now has become beyond gentrified; however, my family still reconnects with the community at several base points in what is now LES Chinatown proper. Prior to your article it the phenomenon of tenant displacement and gentrification has been largely understood to be a community based problem; one that the Chinese population understands as an issue that can't be helped due to their general distrust in social and government services. To all of the commenters here who are so incredibly defensive about their living choices: what you might consider to be a 'cool' place to live means something much, much deeper to the community that has existed there for years. LES/Chinatown is home to business, community-based language and social services, food, resources, history, and million other factor that you can't even fathom as college student whose main concerns are proximity to your favorite watering holes on the Lower East Side.
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55 DELANCEY TENANT 05/10/2010 1:34:00 AM
As one of the only non-white,Asian, or Latino tenants in the building I think a few things should be brought to those who expressed their feelings above.
*People that use the word Hipster should be shot, or ushered into a large room where they can all go fuck themselves. How can you "be" Hipster? What the fuck does hipster mean?!
* If you've never had to worry about finding hiding spots, as a child, in case of a random shooting.. DON'T TELL ME SHIT ABOUT STREET CRED.. Im here for a fucking reason. Not to prove shit to anyone. New York's been cleaned up for the most part, but Baltimore is still dangerous today.
* Not one of us (in my house) moved into this apartment with any focus other than being able to find a place that cost less than living in school dorms. If you're angry... be angry at Universities being able to charge roughly $1300+ a month from 4 students, living in the same small suite* (*single room) . That's Criminal.
*This is happening in Harlem and way Uptown. Where is the "Outrage" for that? Clustering every new tenant of this building a privileged Hipster is a gross misconception. You should be going against these companies, not students who are actually juggling work, school, and more to maintain living in Nyc by our own hard work. We aren't the trust fund babies. We do feel terrible about this whole situation, (now knowing the history of the building) and we have built relationships with our neighbors old and new. Thats all we can do at this point, In reality not one of you are going to do anything beyond posting these useless comments. You can label and call us whatever you will, but I wonder what internet Cafe your sitting in as you look down and chime in on a situation that has NOTHING to do with you. Where do you YOU live? Who was there before YOU? Even if you knew the answer, what would think of someone trying to guilt you out of your great apartment that you worked hard to find? The thought is absolutely fucking insane.
* Its a nicely priced 3 bedroom apartment. Would you take that or an over priced 1 bedroom that could be converted into three in Stuy Town? C'mon, surviving in Nyc is about Making smart choices. We made ours and we're still figuring it out everything that comes with it. There is a larger problem to be addressed, and that's how anything useful can come from this article. Why have these companies been able to control people lives, in this way, for so long? How can they be made accountable, and stopped?
Too bad we can't find an answer at Urban Outfitters... : (
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lucia 05/09/2010 6:07:00 AM
Ms. Dwoskin,
Thanks-you for continuing to explore issues which are highly-relevant to New York City but overlooked by other local media sources.
Might I suggest looking into the real estate issues in the Prospect Heights/Crown Heights neighborhood in Brooklyn, particularly around Franklin Ave, home to the hipster bar, Franklin Park and recently lauded by New York Magazine as a top area for young singles.
This is a neighborhood where some people are now paying $2,500 a month for parking, but many more rely on food stamps to feed their kids.
Race is undeniably an issue in the exchanges between the "old" and "new" residents. I've heard astounding, blatantly-racist comments from middle-class whites moving in about the neighborhood's more settled, black inhabitants. I've also seen whites abused on the street by blacks because of their race/class.
Would love to see an article from you about Brooklyn.
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RT 05/09/2010 2:11:00 AM
These bullying tactics are as common as they are despicable. The fact that there are whole segments of the private equity and real estate industries that are devoted to making a profit by harassing working-class people and kicking them out of their homes is wrong. What we need are stronger tenant protection laws in New York.
Anyone associated with outfits like Madison Capital ought to be ashamed of themselves. As for the privileged kids moving in - you have a choice. You need to realize that by renting one of these apartments, you are facilitating the shameful, illegal and racist harassment by Madison Capital. You're a 23 year-old from Paris and you're clueless about what's going on behind the scenes? That's no excuse. Don't be that person. You don't get any "street cred" for living in an "ethnic" neighborhood, and Chinatown/LES is no bargain anyway. Live somewhere else.
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Michael Martarano 05/08/2010 8:24:00 PM
Enough with the Hipsters! I can't stand them! I lived in NYC in the mid 90s till 2001 when I eventually had enough of it and moved to Europe. Ya know, nasty landlords, immigrants, change, diversity and struggle are all a part of New York's history. This is nothing new.
What is new are these lily white brats with no urban attitude or sensibilities. Trust funds or not, they come to NYC with this sense of entitlement and ZERO chutzpah. They muck up the soul of this city wherever they go and are a dreadful bore.
Chinatown is one of the last few areas in NYC that actually feels like NYC. If these brats don't like it, they shouldn't be here...simple! Fact is, they will eventually move back to their post-hip suburban towns to raise their upper middle class white liberal families, leaving the city they vacationed at for a few years less than it was before they came here and consumed it without giving anything back. They usually leave because after a few years they realize that despite their sense of entitlement, New Yorkers and those people who have balls, don't give a rats a** about them and despite their degrees and social climbing, the only job they can get is as a gallery assistant or a bartender...HA! NYC is not so big and within the communities they try to inhabit, its even smaller. There are only so many galleries, magazines, arts and media jobs available and it doesn't take long for them to realize that if you aren't ballsy, aren't tough, and don't embody the soul of this city, this city will spit you out.
ERR - They unnerve me to no end! Marshmallows!
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Jessica Jiang 05/07/2010 8:28:00 PM
The word "public space" really means different things to the Chinese and hipsters. For thousands of years the Chinese had lived in courtyard houses and villages that encourage big families to cook together and raise children together, which have remained part of their common understanding of public/private distinction. (but chase-feed a child in the hallway might come from too much pampering). This is very out of beat with post industrial molecular lifestyle and long-standing western Protestant individualism, let alone hip or artistic solitude. And one of the shortcomings of Chinatown life is that the atmosphere of "intimate neighborhood" of the Chinese community sometimes may give outsiders a sense of uneasiness (if not distain arising from shallow human snobbery commonly reflected in urban/caste/racial/financial/linguistic sense of supriority). Therefore this crash of cultures is almost inevitable. It is actually also existing even in China, as many old Chinese people back in China find it difficult to get used to highrise buildings and pidgeon-cage apartments mushrooming in the last three decades, and many youngsters, particularly those from the countryside, sometimes feel embarrassed about their parents loud speaking and methods of child upbringing etc...
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Bickle 05/06/2010 8:51:00 AM
ugh god i hate these little twerps from the middle of nowhere who come here thinking they are artists now. you get drunk on dad's money and you churn out kindergarten art projects.
"It was kind of a hole," she says of the Christopher Street apartment, "but we're art students, so we really didn't care."
then go live on the streets! you're artists, it's cool!
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lola 05/06/2010 7:36:00 AM
I am happy I chose not to more to Chinatown. I personally do not understand the need for the Chinese tenants to scream (talk) in the hallway, eat in the hallway, cut hair in the hallway, and live on top of one another. Also, shame on the hispanic family for living 8 people in a 2 bedroom apartment. And they were all born in US? I mean, you can get some personal space. It is healthy and a complete necessity as a human being. As for the landlords, I think it is stupid not to allow the Chinese to hang their signs on the door. Christmas wreaths are one of the most flammable things, esp when old and dry.
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Lee Weingast 05/05/2010 11:18:00 PM
Thank you Elizabeth for this interesting piece. It shows many aspects of a truly complex issue. I am dismayed by the adversarial tone of some the residents and some of the comments here. We have to remember--as I believe you mention-- that NY is in a constant state of change, which includes a flux of cultures and peoples. Perhaps the answer is to keep an open mind and open lines of communication.
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Chuck 04/30/2010 9:12:00 AM
lol. Reminds me of when I used to live down there, the chinese are characters but the "ugly white trash" kids
are truly the blight on the neighborhood, with no knowledge or appreciation of any culture predating them but all
too ready to impose their own "culture" of hard core partying and drunkenness, all the while thinking this is superior
to what was there previously or there now.
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Anna Dunwell 04/29/2010 6:39:00 AM
We are all connected, and yet racism continues - on both sides, no matter whose on each side.
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Jason 04/28/2010 6:54:00 AM
Ok that was a weird comment. Anyhoo, no communication and understanding are not the issues here. I mean, yes, in a perfect world we would all hold hands and walk a mile in each other's shoes but that aint likely to happen. The issue is that building owners have WAY too much power in this city. People living without heat or hot water. Families living with rats and cockroaches swarming their apartments. People being forcibly evicted because they don't speak English and NO ONE CARES.
Take the power back from the land owners.
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RCS 04/27/2010 6:53:00 AM
This is a great article on an ever poignant issue in new york city. Very objective, accurate, and to the point. Thank you for your insight Ms. Dwoskin.
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turk 04/26/2010 11:41:00 PM
oh, goodie!
now, if $1500 for the expectetion of a healthy living quarters strikes some as "crazy", then i'd love to have their take on the $200000 (annually) "borrowed" by, shall we refer to it as 'the other side'- in order to compensate for/to their "art schools" (which in turn go on to cripple a global- anybody recall the word- economy once the hormonal mass-stupidity of their raison d'etre is challenged by reality, but that's a separate article all together now, ain't it?). i also would've loved to know if the lovely french girl intends on returning to her native country once her studies are completed, or if america (ok, NYC+LA!) represents for her the shinning city on the hill some of her fellow country-men, in the form of past foreign ministers, indeed praised it to be throughout the latter thirds of the 20th century. or, for that matter; where else WITHIN america did any other among our gracious newcomers numb away their apathetic teenage afternoons of 'friends' and 'will and grace' re-runs prior to forming a realization they were meant to roam larger, greener pastures? for it strikes me that to be so utterly and remarkably unaware of THE perennial nyc predicament ("... an assumption of privacy"? seriously?) points to a darker, much more hideous misconception at the heart of this matter and which, alas, is quite the dent in shapes to come of it: it is (this particular generation and gentrification of) so called hipsters that is at once socially and culturally FOREIGN new york city. not the other way. sorry Dwoskin, but good ol' 'remy' of your fourth-to-last paragraph is 100% correct in his assessment, for they are in all matter of fact "people who just rent".
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turk 04/26/2010 11:12:00 PM
...enable cookies?
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Jason 04/26/2010 9:46:00 AM
Keith,
All valid points, I misunderstood your point about the author's specifying the newcomers as "white". It does raise a complex issue, in so far as they probably are mostly white, and whether the story could have possibly succeeded without it. Certainly it is unfair to characterize "whites" as being a problem, just as it would be unfair to categorize the criminals from the projects as "the blacks". The animals that live their certainly do not represent the vast majority of their neighbors. They are a demented sub-culture whose criminal activity does a disservice to the hard working families that live in fear in those buildings.
Also, quick note, I meant there is an uptick in crime on the Chinese side of Allen, not the projects. My assertion is that the new, non-Chinese tenants are more criminal on average than the Chinese.
One final thing, the fact that as a white guy in Chinatown I am part of the displacement issue is not lost on me. The difference is that I am married, don't throw late night parties or vandalize, and have always been as respectful as possible to my neighbors, just as I expect them to be with me.
I guess my point is that from my perspective, the removal of the Chinese from Chinatown is sadly getting rid of the best element of the area, and if any other society from this area were to be pushed out (and they are being forcibly removed) it would be better than displacing them.
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keith 04/26/2010 3:30:00 AM
Jason, my issue still resides with Ms. Dwoskin specifically saying the new twenty-something students are "mostly white". If she had not included race as the apparent flashpoint for the problems but focused on the obnoxious,uncaring attitudes of the newcomers, I would not be commenting. She called race out so I’m calling her out for her biased writing.
In regards to your comment on the neighborhood crime, the Projects have always been there and they are not going anywhere. So why is there an uptick in crime and harassments by the Project shitheads? Could be crimes of opportunity in that the influx of moneyed, ipod-wearing white folks potentially make better targets for their booty because they are perceived as carrying credit cards, cash, and personal electronics...and you as a white person (regardless of how long you’ve lived in the Chinatown area) will, unfortunately, feel the wrath of the change on the street
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Jason 04/25/2010 8:16:00 PM
Keith I think there's a couple other factors at work here. For one, the culture moving into Chinatown is transient, so their complaints about the family oriented culture that they are supplanting - one that calls Chinatown "home" - is a little hard to stomach. Also, the tactics used by the property owners to remove the Chinese in favor of the new residents are more often then not, illegal and unethical. Finally, a strict definition of "gentrification" would suggest that crime should drop as a result of the new culture, but in this case there is a sharp increase in crime, albeit petty crime.
For sure the tide of higher rents is unavoidable, and maybe for the best, but the complaints from this new culture are pretty ridiculous. Trust me, I'm white and and I've lived here for years and never had a single problem with a single Chinese person from the neighborhood. I've been in the homes of Chinese and helped some of them with there apartments and their dealings with their landlords, which is sickening trust me. Yes they "talk in the hallways" because they have built a society. Yes they cook food and it smells like seafood because it is. Yes they even spit on the ground, because it is considered better to expel bad mucous and because in Asian countries they consider the ground "dirty" already. It's why they take their shoes off whenever they step inside their apartments and homes. I have had countless run-ins with the newer tenants, the hipsters, the thugs from the projects near the Pathmark and even the little gang-banger kids from the projects. They suck. That is a culture that should be uprooted and moved, not a culture that embodies all of the qualities that we would want in a neighbor or a citizen.
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keith 04/25/2010 10:10:00 AM
Citypigeon – while I may agree somewhat with your point about the NYU Asians and existing East Village residents being more ‘culturally in tune’ with each other (I prefer to say ‘tolerant’), the tonality in the article is negative towards the young adults who are white. The author stops short of calling them interlopers but the sense that she wants to is definitely there.
Moving beyond culture clashes that could happen anywhere between new and old residents, the author practically demonizes the incoming Whites (and let’s not use the term ‘Hipster’ since it’s just a thinly-veiled attempt at being P.C.) for having money which, I believe, is the larger issue. With that said, my original posting was to point out that when money (regardless of race) moves into any neighborhood, some people will lose out so why not at least include other examples of it so the focus can be taken off of race and onto where it should be…on the almighty dollar.
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citypigeon 04/25/2010 5:17:00 AM
keith-the Asian NYU kid and the white/black/brown folks in St Marks are not only more likely to speak the same language but are also more culturally in tune. The situation Dwoskin presents to us is so ugly because of the disparate cultures at clash here, one of which is being abused and pushed out. talk about gentrification at its tragic best
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Chicago 04/25/2010 4:59:00 AM
I like how the neo-bourgeois art/hipster student tenants keep saying crap like "I dunno, I guess it's their culture..." as if the actions of individuals and/or families is representative of the whole of Chinese people--or in the neo-bourgeois' case, the actions are representative of any Asian-looking person(s). Nice to know that, to these abstract intellectuals, skin color is an indicator of ones personality/values and "culture". That's why the pieces being churned out of fancy art schools is so shitty nowadays. The students think being a hipster is a complex culture, which will therefore result in amazing visual masterpieces....as they stand chin-deep in their Wayfarers and asymmetrical/ironic haircuts. Barf.
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Ian 04/24/2010 10:37:00 PM
The kids moving to Chinatown are the most selfish and inconsiderate neighbors you could ever have. They are quickly ruining one of the last community neighborhoods of Manhattan, and I'm sure will continue to do so until Chinatown is wall to wall condos and Apple stores.
Elizabeth nice article, but WAY too diplomatic. These building owners are so fucked up in their methods, and the kids moving in are serious assholes of the highest order.
Also, Village Voice: you fund your cutting edge newspaper with ads for sex slaves. Readers should remind themselves of this whenever they read another scathing inditement of the evil political right.
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Jason 04/24/2010 10:29:00 PM
I'm surprised that most of these comments suggest that the building managers are being unfairly judged. I live in Chinatown, the Fujian side. Within the last 5 years, the building has pushed out all but a couple of the Chinese tenants, overtly manipulating them, refusing to do maintenance on their units, etc. These people are shy and distrustful of their corporate landlords and public services alike (Chinatown fires routinely spread out of control in part because no one calls 911), but they are also by far the best neighbors I have had in all of New York City. They are upwardly mobile, hard working, community-centric and fiercely loyal. Our new neighbors, the NYU kids and hipsters have brought vandalism that NEVER existed previously, drugs and loud noise that make Chinese-language hallway conversations (I can't even believe people are complaining about hallway conversations) sound like a sweet lullaby for an infant. Bad smells? It's called food. They're cooking. You moved to the most heavily populated city in the country, and then chose Chinatown so you could be close to your coke dealer at Max Fish. Sorry about the neighbors cooking dinner for their kids. On the other side of Allen, of course, there are the projects where non of our new hipster friends would dare to take advantage of the low rents. From here gangsters in training will occasionally take a field trip across the street in order to torture the Chinese families and act like exactly what they are. Finally, there's the Spanish families who, if asked, probably wouldn't mind either if the hipsters packed up their grandfathers' hunting shirts, their boxes of sneakers and their iPads and brought their founded their own neighborhood somewhere that no one needs to wake up early, no one cooks in the kitchen, everyone loves graffiti, pot smoke and roof parties, and when people speak they do so behind closed doors and in American English (with of course the obligatory blend of "urban" and "southern" affectations for maximum street cred). Sadly, this jackass paradise will probably be right where I'm standing. Attention hipsters: you are the yuppies you pretend to hate.
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dunbar, David 04/24/2010 4:58:00 PM
hmmm...
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Beth 04/24/2010 4:43:00 PM
Elizabeth Dwoskin YOU NEED TO FIND A MAN !
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Cruz 04/24/2010 4:23:00 PM
I live in the building for the last 18 years and dealt with 5 different management companies thru the years. BY FAR NIR SELA WAS THE BEST OF THEM. I wish that you interview more than 2 persons in the building (or people that did not participate in the rent strike) in order to get the real story and not just an article to fill the empty space in your newspaper.
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Jodi 04/24/2010 8:34:00 AM
Why is it bias to expect your rental apartment to come with reasonable expectations?
I don't want to smell strong food odors from anyone's cooking, be it Asian or white southern or whatever, and closing your apartment door when cooking something pungent should be simple common sense.
The same with hallway congregation - I personally rise at 6am for an early job, why should I or anyone be subjected to loud hallway noise? I believe there is a law against that, and you can hold your landlord liable for not enforcing it, and I don't care what culture you are from, this is simple courtest, not disturbing your neighbors.
The gist of this is, if it's an article in the Voice, the landlord is always evil and the tenant flawless.
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keith 04/24/2010 4:53:00 AM
So, when the Asian-equivalent college types (from say... NYU) move in to the East Village/St.Mark's area and because of their money, they push out the existing white (and black and brown) folks, is that considered ugly too?!
Or is it ugly just when hipster (read: white) folks do it....
Ms. Dwoskin, if you're going to point fingers, make sure you reference other similar situations....
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T.Adeyemi 04/24/2010 4:31:00 AM
These kinds of clashes are naturally expected in cities as culturally diverse as New York, but your articles encourage more insight, and it's great sometimes to know exactly what the issues are. I always enjoy reading your articles, Elizabeth-- thanks.
