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Vjefferies23 05/15/2012 11:39:00 PM
I got a 95 on that test and did not even get called.
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DaveD 05/14/2012 9:22:00 PM
Youre a degenerate. The absolute goal is supposed to be equality, the definition of that should be displayed by abandoning the subject of race altogether. Call an applicant APPLICANT, not minority applicant, not white applicant. If you disagree with this, your just another filthy loafer demanding a free lunch. Which lets face it, we both know you are already. Jerk.
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Doug 05/09/2012 2:15:00 PM
oh melinda... you were doing ok-ish until you revealed your true nature in the end. "Now when everyone else wants a little bonus". First off, did you ever stop to think that just because a lot of firefighters are related, this doesn't mean there was favortisim or nepotism involved? Perhaps they just loved the role and wanted to follow in the same footsteps, and were equally qualified? Love the assumptions that do nothing to credit your claims.
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03/27/2012 5:46:00 PM
Minorities dont get extra "points" just for being a minority. How about all the white guys who actually DO get extra points just cause of a relative in the FDNY? Its not a fucking clubhouse. Whites have been getting bonuses for all kinds of shit since the FDNY was first created. So because your father or uncle got killed in a fire that means you are more competent than a black firefighter who has no family in the department? Now when everyone else wants a little bonus you people go crazy. LOL
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Mike 03/09/2012 9:45:00 PM
A multiple choice test based exclusively on elementary level reading, writing, and math skills.
Of course it is racist.
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Ace 09/22/2011 3:31:00 PM
I Agree with points 1 and 3 but cant agree with u on point 2. I Agree to Make this the most fair test possible for any and everyone is to take points 1 and 3 and with that take away all LEGACY, MILITARY, and RESIDENTIAL credits and make it a standard point test from 1-100...
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Polk 09/05/2011 12:35:00 AM
great answer !
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danny 08/25/2011 6:13:00 PM
As a black man I totally agree with you. It should be a level playing field. I registered for the test and don't expect to be favored due to my skin color. This is non-sense. Racism goes both ways.
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Mike 07/03/2011 4:05:00 PM
What points are they getting? The only thing it stated was to give points to people that graduated city high schools!
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John 06/30/2011 2:57:00 PM
Paul Washington and John Coombs would ignore a Fire Alarm low battery alert in the basement of a Multiple Dwelling?
Is that laziness or stupidity?
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Bigciti34 06/22/2011 3:21:00 AM
I think its totally unfair for minorities to get extra points on a standard, non racist test. If i get a 90 on the test and someone gets the job before me with an 80, then somethings messed up. Anyone who disagrees with this logic is a moron. Study for the test, learn how to read and write, and pass the test . stop the whining already ! how many advantages do you need to get a job. The fact that everyone is getting points on their skin color is racist toward whites. We have to suffer because we do well on test, thats insane
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05/10/2011 3:30:00 PM
George: “just read the book Ragtime, or watch the movie. What more can one say about race and the fire dept.?”
1. Ragtime was set 100 years ago;
2. The fire department in question was not in NYC;
3. It was a work of fiction;
4. It was a work of extremely unrealistic fiction, in which depending on your source, the author, communist E.L. Doctorow, either plagiarized or wrote an homage to a 19th century Kleist novella set in 16th century Germany, Michael Kohlhaas, and mixed it with Black Power propaganda.
George, I’d call you “retarded,” but that would be an insult to retarded folks, like one named Greg who used to tell me, “I may be retarded, but I’m not stupid.”
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inirt783 03/30/2011 1:14:00 AM
I am a Firefighter and my list # was in the top 1000. The simple solution is to make the test simple math reading and writing.
As a Black NYC Firefighter it seemed as if the test is was not biased and I was one who never thought that it was. But over the years my thought process has changed to believe otherwise. I am not a member of the Vulcan Society because I do not believe in many things that they do. Now I do believe that the test is biased.
But if a person who's parent was a firefighter has a knowledge of what a standpipe is will read the question answer and move on to the next one. When one is taking a timed test one does not have the time to decipher termonology. It is a small advantage but an advantage non the less. Also the purpose of the question is simple math so why not ask a straight forward math question. There are those who will say that u need to know these things to become a firefighter. That is Bull what you need to be a firefighter is taught in the academy.
Km1075@aol.com you had the ability to train for 2 years what happens if u work 7 day a week and have a family to take care of where do u find the time to study. I was in school and working two jobs when i took the test and i passed but i will tell u that some of the people who scored the highest on the entrance exam are the stupidest people u will ever meet. They studied for 2-3 years to pass a test but they aren't capable of being a functioning human.
Lt. Steve being a firefighter if u wanted the best person working with u then ask that they give a straight foward test and find out who is best for the job in the academy where the test ur phyisical ability and "firefighting ablity". You know that there are firefighters that are dumb as hell but you would take them over the smartest person in the firehouse because they are the better fireman.
As for Judy are u serious u actually believe that there isnt an race issue in hiring practices. The purpose of these lawsuits is to change for the better sure some people will not get hired even though they should but down the road when everyone has an equal playing field u will see.
When i was getting hired I was supposed to be in the first class from my exam but my white investigator never returned my calls. I finally got called because a minority investigator realized what he was doing. There are many things that need to change with the hiring process of the FDNY this is just a start.
And just so u know I am not talking only talking about minorities if u give a straight forward test everyone will be on an even scale. Also many firemen have been complaining about the lowering of the standards of education. Just remember most of the senior men on the job only have their GEDs . Everything in life has to evolve over time to many of my fellow firefighters only want to have their fellow white brothers as co-workers.
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zooyork 03/22/2011 5:32:00 PM
You just displayed the same racist logic that most white people use, "if i can do it, then why cant minorities?". You fail to understand that you may think you busted your ass to get the job but in reality you didn't have to do a quarter of the work that a minorities have to do everyday. stop acting like racism isn't real.
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common sense 03/20/2011 3:42:00 PM
Equal rights for all individuals, this includes white candidates.
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common sense 03/20/2011 3:37:00 PM
you are an idiot
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Pbgtek1 03/11/2011 9:08:00 AM
i have the solution ..its so easy... its a ten year plan....
1.You MUST LIVE IN ONE OF THE FIVE BOROS FOR THE LAST 5 YEARS PRIOR TO TEST... 2.YOU CANNOT HAVE A FAMILY MEMBER IN THE FDNY... 3.TEST SHOULD BE BASIC READING AND MATH... after all, you are going to get training so theres no need to know squat about firefighting.
numbers 1 and 2 would all but eliminate the racist hiring problems.
Besides, its not the testing ..its the decision making process.. if you think McClasky isnt getting pushed to the front cause his uncle is a big guy in the department, i have a bridge to sell you. The discrimination by nepotism starts at the top!
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Km1075@aol.com 02/08/2011 12:15:00 AM
the FDNY is a very sought after job. applicants from around the country if not the world apply and take the test. so standards have to be high to get the best of such a large number of applicants. its getting to the point that we have to hold everybodies hand and do everything except take the test for them. personal responsiblity is right out the window. when i took the exam i trained for 2 years to pass the physical, up rooted my life and moved to the city with hopes of getting residency points, and attended the study sessions for the written exam. i remember not seeing many minority faces in those prep classes for the written and physical. and somehow its the cities problem or fault? i wanted the job, i researched everything about getting hired, and busted my ass to get my job. not many minorities are getting hired, are they putting in the effort like anybody else did to get hired? the vulcans would rather give any advantage they can to the minority applicants. is that fair? what about the non minority applicants? isnt that descrimination? and why havent we heard any arguments from the asian population? they are a minority group, and have historically done very well with schooling. large number of indian and asian people have gone off to become doctors or higher educated positions. they take the test and pass very well, and get hired. so the argument comes from people that cant pass the written and want every advantage out there. your own vulcans are pushing the whole process back and creating more problems, by making it easier for minorities because they cant pass. maybe they dont deserve the job
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Firemn4256 02/05/2011 12:57:00 PM
Who is being racist here? The Fire Dept. giving a basic test question on an important part of firefighting? (nozzle pressure)...or the Village Voice saying that blacks and latino' can't figure out what 5X4 is?
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Lt. Steve 01/07/2011 2:01:00 PM
How is a straight forward logical exam labeled as a racist exam? It truly boggles my mind. When i was nineteen years old i went to my local library in Queens. There was plenty of material on the FDNY entrance exam right at my fingertips in one of the most diverse neighborhoods in perhaps the world. After studying the material i took the written exam and did well enough to get called for the physical exam along with the other exams before hiring. What i am getting at is that the exam was not biased in any aspect. If you want to make a career in firefighting for yourself you must go out and work hard for it. You need to study and train hard physically for the physical fitness test. I am getting sick of always hearing about the handouts people get these days. No one is owed a thing in this life. If you want something you must have that drive to be successsful. Firefighting is a dangerous job and requires an intelligent individual. When i go to work i just want the best of the best working with me no matter male or female or black or white. Just do not lower standards because the numbers in the population of the city do not match up with the numbers on the job. If that was the case we would need to revamp the entire Corrections and MTA agencies.
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Judy 01/05/2011 3:28:00 PM
How is it still possible in this day and age for race to be an issue in employment? Wasn't this addressed in the 1960's? Wasn't this resolved then? Half a century later, we are still seeing the results of those who refuse to accept that equality in humans is more than skin deep. Personally, I want a firefighter or a police officer (or any public servant for that matter) who is intelligent, able to communicate and use reason. These are not matters subject to debate.
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01/04/2011 11:23:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGEIl6oR_vU.............This is one of the reasons why this will never be solved........Please watch the link.
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Guest 01/04/2011 6:50:00 PM
A perfect example of how liberals became victims of their own political correctness. Your social policies sends our society backwards, not foward.
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Shabba 12/29/2010 7:10:00 PM
The Village Voice: Out of Stories, and Running Out of Time
http://thedailycannibal.com/2010/10/25/the-village-voice-out-of-stories-and-running-out-of-time/
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Esteban 12/27/2010 4:11:00 AM
I admire your satire, and unlike the uninformed author the understanding of what a "standpipe" is, is indeed important to the trade. Our country will soon collapse in on itself with the proliferation of incompetence. No need for minorities like myself to strive, educate and make an effort as long as there are guilty liberals like this jackass and his ideal, enabler jurist.
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zoo6627 12/26/2010 3:40:00 AM
How dare Mike Bloomberg, billionaire, keep over 1000 jobs and the $100,000,000 in economic impact off the market?
The city government is an economic engine, whether you like that fact or not. How dare Bloomberg refuse to accept any of the options Judge Garaufis has approved including ones that would allow him to hire from the 2007 list.
What reason would the mayor have? Protecting the rights of whites or to garner votes from the those who feel those rights are threatened?
There will be no disparate impact on white applicants. They will be hired in larger numbers, they always are. White communities will feel the most benefit, but black communities, which need these dollars most, will benefit, too. This is not a handout to black people.
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12/23/2010 3:43:00 PM
For four decades, federal courts have asked the city to adapt different ways of recruiting and screening candidates. The FDNY has been asked, for example, to rely partially upon interviews and oral exams instead of strictly upon written tests.
Translation: it has been asked to make tests more subjective so that quotas can be imposed quietly.
[Catherine Cline] implied that the passing score was chosen in an arbitrary manner,
Translation: it was chosen at whatever level brought the lowest-scoring ethnic group's pass rate to near 80%, so that no matter how well the highest-scoring group did it would meet the federal guidelines.
And this wasn't enough for Garaufis.
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12/23/2010 3:33:00 PM
It has also been on notice of possible problems with Exam 6019 since—at the very latest—January 2010 and has in no way adjusted its processing of applicants.”
I call B.S.
There is no problem with Exam 6019 that does not exist with every single other civil service exam ever. There has never been a written test with any level of predictive power of an applicant's performance that has not had a large black-white racial gap. What folks like Garaufis presumably want is an oral exam with the applicant's race known and with a clear message to the proctor to make certain that the grading system gets the correct number of black applicants. In other words, make it subjective enough to sneak a quota in.
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12/23/2010 3:30:00 PM
They ranged... [to] randomly hiring only from those who had scored a certain amount,
No, randomly hiring from those who score a crain amount was not an option. That is what they do now and what was found illegal. The judge's solution was to hire the top scorers from each race with an explicit racial quota. That is, the top 2500 scorers, pro-rated by race/ethnicity. For example, if the population is 35% white, 30% black, and 25% Latino, and 10% other, the top 875 whites, 750 blacks, 625 Latinos, and 250 other (presumably this would be broken down further) would be hired.
Every solution that Garaufis offered involved an explicit racial quota or the promise of one in the future.
Garaufis’s reaction to that response bore the signature of someone who feels that he has been strung along and is tired of being had
He refuses any "solution" that is not an explicit quota, which the city has rejected. His "I was had" reaction is B.S.
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12/23/2010 3:21:00 PM
Other city departments don’t have such stark numbers. The NYPD, for example, is 16.6 percent black and 18 percent Latino. Those levels are each lower than the actual population, but the practices used to reach them are within federal guidelines.
I'm under the impression that the current policies of the FDNY also meet federal guidelines (e.g. the pass rate for the poorest scoring ethnic group is >/= 80% of the highest scoring ethnic group).
The problem is a rogue judge (Nicholas G. Garaufis) who unilaterally decided "that's not good enough," not with the department not meeting federal guidelines.
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MickMan31187 12/23/2010 2:22:00 AM
http://youtu.be/HGEIl6oR_vU.............The Village Voice rally addresses problems no other Newspaper will address. Thank you for speaking up.Maybe one day things in this city will change.
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Pat 12/21/2010 9:22:00 PM
By "grow some balls" do you mean cave into political correctness at the expense of actual job qualifications. Is that the right thing? Im not sure what your stance is. Are you advocating the elimination of color blind civil service examinations, to be replaced racial quota systems? Sounds dangerous.
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Shadeed Ahmad 12/21/2010 12:03:00 AM
Reply to Kingsfr:
You too seem to be rather intelligent. I do know that there are a lot of black Americans who do not want to be fire persons. Also, I do know that you have taken my comments out of contexts. There is no person or racial group that has a hegemony on intelligence. Strangely, you perceive that you should contrive that I'm basing my prior comments on giving black persons a unwarranted trip to New York City firehouses.
Please, stop pandering to the status quo at the expense of others misfortunes and realities You need a healthy dose of common sense.
You apparently know there is a great deal of intelligence in the black community, but you are obviously oblivious for some nefarious reason that immense discrimination has for many years existed in New York City fire houses. You probably don't really care. You have your yours, the crumb that it is.
You apparently look down your nose at the profession of being a fireman. Someone, taking on the calling of being a fire person is special, indeed. They are often extremely intelligent and made of venerable characteristics that your view of intelligence doesn't necessarily have. There are a lot of intellectually remiss people who graduate from colleges and universities who can not match some fire persons in intellect, let alone bravery and dedication.
Please, get your eyes checked. I didn't say anything about lowering the standards of the FDNY test to allow blacks to pass. Now, you're one of those who would apparently have problems comprehending the FDNY exam.
There are a variety of reasons people don't get entry into the FDNY. Time honored racism is one of them in some cases. Denying that racism exists in today's FDNY is tantamount to being less than intelligent. Racism is not across the board in the FDNY, especially when fire persons have to be a team in fighting fires. However, there is a tradition in America of racism in the nations' fire departments has to be held accountable, not left off the hook by people like you in "La La" land.
America at its best is supposed to be the land of the free and the home of the brave. Fire persons in the ideal sense fit that description. Whether you realize it or not there could be more minority representation in the nation's fire departments exemplifying such bravery and freedom. Any person regardless of race should have equal access to fulfillment in life. Unfortunately, in America there is a status quo that historically has used race as a weapon of choice, along with people like you who are educated and willing in helping them uphold their tyranny. Enjoy your crumb.
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Pat 12/20/2010 7:17:00 PM
I guess you need to resort to name calling because you have no legitimate argument to the points I made. You are the one who is turning a blind eye to the real dangers we face as firefighters. It is very easy for you to sit in front of your computer and argue for diversity over actual qualifications. However, my friend, you are not the one crawling down a smoke filled hallway having to wonder wether or not the firefighter behind you is capable of watching your back. If you are so open minded and such a proponent of diversity, why don't you go tutor some of these inner city kids so that they ace the exam. Otherwise, keep your uninformed, idealistic opinions to yourself! If we want to improve the diversity numbers of the FDNY, we have two choices. We can lower standards along with setting up quotas and hire lower scoring minorities over white males. Or, we can better prepare the minorities to score well on these exams, so that they can compete on an equal level with the white boys (many of whom are college educted). I can see that the second option is much more difficult and involves many aspects of society needing to improve. It will be hard work, but I believe we are up for the challenge. By your support of the first option, Thewaywewer, it sounds to me like you are the one who wants things to remain the same!
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Kingsfr 12/20/2010 5:53:00 PM
Shadeed,
You are, obviously, an intelligent person. And, you make good points. However, allow me to put a question out there for all to think about.
Any normal, intelligent person would not argue that one ethnic group can not do well on the test. All ethnic groups have people that are more intelligent than others and some that may be not be as able as others. As you know, there are many intelligent and successful black Americans today and in our history. We have black American doctors, lawyers, executives in major corporations, journalists, scientists, etc. No one can deny this. They have worked hard to achieve their goals just like anyone else, regardless of ethnic background. In the past it was very difficult for black Americans to succeed because of racial bias and even laws. Today, the laws regarding race have changed. Race can not be used to prevent a person from applying and getting a job. If you take a test and pass it, you are given a list number according to how well you did on the test. That way there could be no bias. No discrimination. A person is hired based on their own merrit.
So, back to my question. Isn't it possible that most people in the black American community that can do well enough on the tests to get hired off the list just don't want to be a firefighter? For many, many years black Americans were held back. Now, they have a chance to follow their dreams. They have an opportunity to pursue careers where they can make good salaries. Some do choose to become firefighters. But many more do not. This is evident by the amount of effort as well as the millions of dollars that are spent on recruitment for the FDNY. Black Americans just do not apply for the job in large numbers. Unfortunately, there are black Americans, just like there are white Americans, who take the test but fail to make the grade. This is not racist. It's just that most of the higher achieving black Americans would rather go into other fields of work. I'm sure that, in some cases, there are black Americans that are the first in there families to go to college. Their parents would be pretty disappointed if they spent all that effort and money on college and then their kid decided to become a firefighter instead of a higher paying, safer job. (I know my parents were.)
My point is, maybe the reason that there are a relatively low number of black American firefighters in the FDNY is not because of racism, but simpy, because the majority of the black American community just does not have the desire to be firefighters at this time in history.
The idea to lower standards and change the rules to get more individuals from a particular ethnic group hired to me seems racist in itself and insulting to all those from that particular ethnic group who worked hard to be part of the FDNY.
Just like there are many white American applicants who did not score high enough on the test, there are black American applicants who did not score high enough on the test to get hired. It is what it is...but it's not racist.
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EcuaD 12/20/2010 5:28:00 PM
Judge Garaufis is way off for this one. I took the FDNY exam before 6019 and I am now a firefighter. For enquiring minds, I am Hispanic (Ecuadorian). The exam had basic memory, basic math and basic reasoning questions....all of which are very much needed for this job. These are necessary job skills. If your family member (or you) is sick or in a major accident and calls 911, do you want a firefighter that is able to read, comprehend, understand and apply emergency medical protocol? If there is a terrorist attack, a major disaster hits the city, or there is a hazardous material leak/spill near your home don't you want a fire fighter that can read and comprehend safety protocol, hazmat placards, and Emergency Response Guides? If there is a fire in your home a firefighter needs basic math skills in order to determine if a fire engine, hydrant or standpipe would be able to deliver enough water to a fire by computing friction, pumping force and heigh. If there is a fire in your home and your family member is trapped or unconscious a firefighter must remember to give a proper radio transmission (exact location in home, surroundings, etc) so the chief can make effective decisions on the response. These are just a few examples. This job is not a joke, people can die.
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Smith 12/20/2010 5:23:00 PM
http://www.city-journal.org/2010/eon1024hm.html
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Blue_tone101 12/20/2010 5:11:00 PM
This is just another elite activist lawyer/judge doing as he darned well pleases no matter what the law says. Helping to destroy America one judgement at a time just.
Judge Nicholas Garaufis recently presided over a case in which I was the plaintiff (through my company).
The case was a foreclosure on a mortgage loan I made to a company in Brooklyn. My company and I are based in New Jersey so there was diversity jurisdiction, hence the federal venue.
The judge sat on my case for two years during which my attorney had at least two appearances in front of him. I attended one, in which my attorney moved to appoint a rent receiver. Judge Garaufis yelled at him, "I heard you the first ten times," and then proceeded to do nothing. The borrower continued to collect rent while paying no taxes, mortgage, maintenance or anything else, letting our security go to waste. A sizable tax lien on one of the collateral properties was sold and is now foreclosing ahead of us.
We moved for summary judgment and the judge let our motion languish for a very long time. We contacted the clerk and wrote to the judge, besieging him to review our motion. We explained the damage I was incurring: In addition to the devaluation of the properties, the lack of cash flow hurt both my company and me personally.
Finally, after many more months, Judge Garaufis dismissed our case on a technicality, claiming that the case did not belong in federal court because the residence of the borrower and the John Doe's were not known—total nonsense. The judge knew full well that the borrower and its principal reside in Brooklyn and that I and my company reside in NJ. My attorney named “John Doe's” as defendants because at the outset of our action we didn't know whom else we might have to name. But by the time the judge wrote his decision we had already had knowledge of all the defendants for a long time and could have easily demonstrated to him that diversity jurisdiction absolutely existed. But he didn't even give us a chance.
I showed his decision to several attorneys, and they all agreed that it was clear that the judge did not want my case in front of him. I could have appealed but that would have merely proven that diversity jurisdiction did exist and that my case could be reviewed in federal court. But that would have just put me back in square one, and possibly with the same hostile Judge Garaufis.
I was totally at Judge Garaufis's mercy, and suffered substantial financial damage as a result of his wrongful decision and his intentional delay (my attorney learned that our case was repeatedly relegated to the bottom of the judge's pile). Now I have to start my action from scratch.
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Mcdrunka 12/20/2010 4:02:00 PM
Get a fucking clue and stop hating
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Shadeed Ahmad 12/20/2010 1:59:00 PM
In reply to "Do Tell":
Obviously you feel that your firehouse and the population of your residents there bespeaks of what is well and good throughout the nation. Don't flatter your myopic vision.
In furthering your weak argument about racial disparities in firehouses you play the quintessential role of the white male who has a penchant for playing African Americans against Hispanics.
You're part of the problem because of your being consciously and/or unconscious that some truly capable persons taking the test are being thwarted from making their dreams come true in inordinate numbers.
The firehouse members at your wedding that are minorities denote a beautiful coming together. However, again, this is not the norm in any truly significant numbers in these alleged United States.
It's apparent that you are a passionate person. I am too. This thread that we have written on is a marketplace of ideas where engagement can perhaps promote less bias and more open mindedness.
The game of life more often than not reveals that when someone is always winning despite being no more skilled than another, the deck is being stacked in the winner's favor.
You have been the beneficiary of privilege despite having not been capable on a number of attempts at passing the Fire Department test. How do you think people feel that pass it with flying colors and still never make the cut? It's a travesty of social justice.
We are all brothers and sisters on this planet, unfortunately there are elements of wanton arrogance that continue to usurp the possibility of harmony on this planet out a fear and greed for self aggrandizement that often reveals itself as being racially motivated.
White America too often turns a blind eye to its discriminatory practices and gets deeply perturbed when being called for its remiss recognitions of other racial groups' humanity and their needs of being shown decency and respect. By the same token all people should show each other decency respect.
If someone has their foot on another's neck and the victim cries out, indeed there is a reason for the anguish. White people would never put up with the discrimination against them that minorities face in this society on a menagerie of unnecessary levels in the twenty-first century.
By the way, I'm from this planet. Please try to decrease the dosage of your foolish and distorted emotionalism against black Americans. I know you don't love me, but we are living in times where the world is in peril on many levels and to save it and ourselves we must work together for the overall good of the planet and humanity, devoid of any racial supremacy.
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TheWayWeWer 12/20/2010 2:52:00 AM
So, so unfair. It's people like you who turn a blind eye to it. You come up with all these lame excuses for things to remain the same. dummy.
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TheWayWeWer 12/20/2010 2:47:00 AM
You should challange the 75-80% in the Dept of Correction.
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TheWayWeWer 12/20/2010 2:46:00 AM
You're right. You should rally up the troops.
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Quietstormblows 12/20/2010 2:42:00 AM
He needs to stop being a punk.
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Quietstormblows 12/20/2010 2:41:00 AM
I mean article. This mayor needs to man up and do the right thing!
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Quietstormblows 12/20/2010 2:40:00 AM
Lots of truth in this articule. The mayor needs to grow some balls, and do the right thing. I guess he's afraid of a little tension with some individuals. The mayor fears them more than he fears the federal court.
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Michael Kerjman 12/19/2010 7:13:00 PM
It is a good article.
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Do tell. 12/19/2010 3:17:00 PM
What planet are you on? I work with blacks, Hispanics and women in my firehouse. How did they get the job? THEY APPLIED THEMSELVES. Seems the black guy that played Santa Claus had no problem holding up everybodys kids as he handed out the gifts. I never saw any racist tension at my wedding when they were there.
Stop making excuses and do the following:
1) Take the test. If you fail, then take the next one. And prepare yourself harder for it.
2) Pass the physical. If you fail, prepare yourslf for the next one.
3) Have a clean background with good moral character.
Now see how simple that is?
But let me ask you this, for I live in the suburbs: With the last few exams, both entrance and promotional for EMS employees, I have noticed a Helluva lot more Hispanics coming on the FDNY. Most of them live in the city, and more than likely went to the same schools as blacks. So chances are they took the same classes as well.
So with the same educational opportunities offered by the City of New York, why are Hispanics getting on the job and blacks can't (or won't)?
I can't wait for the reply to this.
I missed the 82 exam, crashed the 87 exam, and aced the 92 exam (which had its filing date extended because............ not enough minorities applied. Imagine that).
You want the job, then prepare for it. Anyone who thinks demographics should be a factor in what an agency should look like should also try getting their heads out of their asses.
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Jimmy3 12/19/2010 3:06:00 PM
Good points, but why is the FDNY being forced to give handouts to people who can't graduate? If it is the fault of the teachers, then let the Board of Education hire them as teachers. As DC Paul Mannix said; "The FDNY should not be used as an experiment in social engineering". And for those who mention the "trailblazer" BB, a 24 foot ladder on the side of an engine (or in the ladder bed of a truck) weighs the same no matter what race or sex you happen to be. The women were given a different standard. Let's hope you don't get what you asked for. A rig full of women or minorities too dumb to pass a 6th grade exam pulling up on your house might make you reconsider, but then it will be too late.
I missed the 82 exam, crashed the 87 exam, and aced the 92 exam (which had its filing date extended because............ not enough minorities applied. Imagine that).
You want the job, then prepare for it. Anyone who thinks demographics should be a factor in what an agency should look like should also try getting their heads out of their asses.
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Jim3174 12/19/2010 2:20:00 AM
Don't you mean 'comment'?
I bet you failed the test as well. I can see why.
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Jim3174 12/19/2010 2:17:00 AM
Well, why don't you tell us?
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terry43 12/18/2010 10:52:00 PM
Solving an "alleged" discriminatory exam with reverse discrimination does not seem like a solution to me. The Vulcans want a lottery. That's their ultimate goal and they're not afraid to admit it. Put all thirty thousand plus names of applicants in a hat and shake it up and see what falls out. Is that what we want when our house is on fire. Why shouldn't the FDNY get the best possible applicant? There are thousands of young men out their willing to work their butt off to be a good firefighter - that's who I want protecting my family.
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transplanted New Yorker 12/18/2010 12:45:00 AM
Um, it's "seriously." When you state, "Learn to structure a sentence properly and people might take you serious." I'm a English Literature major and work in the financial field. I find this to be a New York problem (across all races). Obviously, I'm not a native New Yorker, but proud to be one now (I've lived here for 15+ years). :)
I have to say I am absolutely disgusted by this article. It's 2010 and racial discrimination still exists. The people highlighted passed with high scores (white, black, hispanic, asian, etc.), so why haven't they been hired? As far as I'm concerned, can you put out/control the fire?
I live in Harlem and have great neighbors/friends.The few times I've called the police, they are slow (read: can't find their way out of a paper bag). As a result, And, they definitely target blacks (I've seen and witnessed this on several occasions).
The discrimination is the same in my field: How many on the board of directors are 1) other than white, 2) other than male ?
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pschase 12/17/2010 9:39:00 PM
This is an interesting one. I'm a black guy on Staten Island ( ! ) Who has 2 firefighter "friends" - I've never eaten at their homes, but then again, i've never invited them to mine! lol
That said, I would not let these dudes "die in the street" and I know they would carry me out of a burning building. So OK. Now, I've seen some severely racist and sexist behavior from members of the department out here. Is it a matter of a few bad apples or a few good ones in the batch? And how does your answer jibe with the administrators, the ones making the final decision for hires? No, the Fire Dept. ain't all bad - Yes, racism is still a live and visceral force in society today...
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Pat 12/17/2010 6:08:00 PM
Retail goods stacked in a firetruck? You need to check on your facts before posting such an ignorant statement. Also, The FDNY hasn't fought to keep anyone out, it is fighting against lowered standards! Are you telling me that nonwhites can't compete when it comes to a 6th grade level reading comprehension exam? Now thats a racist point of view! We must work hard to reach our goals and fight the obstacles that get in our way. What I learned from Jackie Robinson is that the best way to prove your doubters wrong is to perform better then they could ever imagine. Work hard and succeed, don't slack off and expect to have things handed to you.
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Cssidenver 12/17/2010 5:59:00 PM
Look, this is the same fire department that fought to keep women out of the department. Then, when some women did make it many of their gas masks were allegedly tampered with, a fact that could have cost them their lives.
Much is said about the heroism of this department during the 9/11 immediacy. Not much mentioned anymore about the retail goods that were stacked in a firetruck, probable evidence that there was some looting involved.
Black prospects and Hispanics need to stay in the fight. Now that the courts have recognized these blatantly scripted questions maybe, just maybe they can get on the force.
Who was it that broke the color barrier in major league baseball? He first was not accepted and had to sit on the bench by himself.
Heroes all? I'll take my heroes one at a time, not in a group.
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Pat 12/17/2010 5:58:00 PM
Actually, I would estimate 40 to 50 percent of FDNY firefighters live in the city. Those that do not live here however, are subjected to a special tax imposed by the city. It is almost equivalent to local income taxes. Comacho, I would like to ask you if blacks and Hispanics are willing to work with anyone, why does the city need to spend millions of dollars every year trying to get them to merely apply for the job? Minority dominated agencies (such as Corrections and Sanitation, which have comparable salaries) do not have to spend this kind of money on recruitment. Maybe the blacks and Hispanics want to work amongst their own? What makes you say that FDNY firefighters work in an environment they despise? Many of us love working in our firehouses and serving the local communities. Where I am stationed in Harlem, we are some of the few positive male role models that the kids in the projects can look up to. We enjoy helping them out, wether its helping them fix their bikes, giving them a tour of the firehouse, or opening hydrants for them to play in during the summer. Do you really believe that so many firefighters would be willing to risk their lives to help people you say they "despise" for the same salary they could make as carpenters, bus drivers, garbage men, etc? I can promise you that firemen give everything they have when they are rescuing people from a fire or other emergency, and the last thing on our minds is that person's skin color!
We do care about who we work with. I want someone who is qualified watching my back. I want that person to be physically capable of dragging me out (200+lbs with my gear on) if I should go down. But they also must be able to make life or death decisions in a split second. It is tough to fairly test for this, but a 6th grade reading comprehension exam should not be too difficult for an FDNY firefighter who needs to read hundreds of pages of procedural guides ranging from fire operations to hazardous materials. If a firefighter candidate can't ace the written exam, he should think about another career, period!
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C. Comacho 12/17/2010 2:56:00 PM
Shadeed Ahmad's comment below, in my opinion rings true. In addition to his comments, I would like to add that the majority of these firefighters rarely live in the city. They work in the city, but then take their taxes to the suburbs..
I find it somewhat curious that these officers and firefighters who are mainly "White", travel an hour, if not more, to work in the same environment with people they despise.
I don't want my comments above to be misconstrued. Blacks and Hispanics are willing to work with anyone. But it seems that the majority, who happen to be "White" don't feel the same, as is evidenced by this article.
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Shadeed Ahmad 12/17/2010 6:51:00 AM
Let's get to the point. We live in an inherent racist society. It always has been and still is. There is not a substantial inkling of an emergence of an authentic desire in the general public to bring about a wave of interracial socializing. There is what amounts to very limited cases where Americans of different races have dinner at each other's homes, wed each other, and live in neighborhoods together and lovingly mingle.
It is tradition in fire houses not just in New York City, but all over America that whites dominate the residency of fire houses. It is quite apparent that whites don't want to live with minorites in such close quarters. The ultimate screening process for minorities trying to apply to these traditionally predominantly white abodes is a virtual file thirteen. It's futile trying to intelligently examine alleged reasons for the racial imbalance in fire houses. Discounting the reality of how bane minorities are considered to whites when there is a possibilty that they may have to live in the close quarters of a fire house is having one's mind in" La La "land.
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12/17/2010 5:12:00 AM
The HESI is simply a comprehension test covering basic English and math skills. The questions are no more confusing than many of the questions found in tests covering material in the various nursing courses or on the board exams. If a person cannot comprehend what they are reading or cannot figure out a proper dose of medicine, I sure don't want them administering meds to me. In addition, many schools in various areas of the country require that the HESI be taken prior to admittance to the school of nursing.
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Abc 12/17/2010 5:02:00 AM
there's nothing deal with black or any race. this is a case that the corrupted US government systems should use plain language. it's also true that blacks need to play less and study hard, but that's another story and not related to this case
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DM 12/17/2010 1:40:00 AM
Dude, didn;t you get the memo white is as much a "construct" as "Latino" is!
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bs 12/16/2010 11:21:00 PM
"The judge had the city and the plaintiffs meet with a special master, who devised seven different plans for hiring interim firefighters. They ranged from randomly hiring from all exam-takers in proportion to their racial makeup, or randomly hiring only from those who had scored a certain amount, or immediately seating those—like Sabir and Cargin—who had aced the most recent test with a promise to do even better with a racial quota on the subsequent incoming class."
How do you write such a paragraph with no opinion attached, when the rest of your article is biased and geared towards exploiting that the FDNY exam #6019 discriminates against minorities. Probably because non of the options given by the special master to devise a plan to hire were fair or non-discriminatory. Option 1- Randomly hire anyone who took the test? Thats a waste of the city's time and money! Why would a city spend millions of dollars to create an open competitive exam, only to turn around and just hand the job to anyone who randomly applied for the exam. Some of the people that took the exam and failed, most likely had no possible chance of passing a grueling academy that Probies go through regardless of their race. So to randomly hire people who didn't pass or didn't apply themselves and just showed up that day is an insult to anyone who actually did study and prepare themselves for the exam. In other words, I'm saying they applied themselves! Option 2- Randomly hiring from those who scored a certain amount? How low would you go to get your quota? What a disgrace again to those who studied and took the test seriously. Would you want someone coming to your home that scored a 30 on an entry level test that they are now performing as their career? Not me! I wouldn't even want that person changing my light bulbs if that was their job description. Obviously that isn't their true calling in life and they should get another job. Option 3- Immediately seating minorities that aced the test. If that doesn't scream RACISM, I don't know what does. Bypassing anyone, regardless of their race, gender or color that scored the same or better is absolutely discriminatory.
'The Vulcans, however, support an option that would have allowed Cargin and all of his classmates to be hired. Despite his belief that 6019 was a bad exam, Judge Garaufis did create a pathway for those who had aced it."
"Ultimately, it was the city’s decision not to hire them."
Of course the Vulcans support these options cause it gets minorities on the job. Too bad it isn't done FAIRLY and isn't that what the Vulcan society is trying to achieve? Equality ? Or a spot on the job, regardless of how it's obtained. But this is also coming from the same society that called its' prospective members "casualties of war". I didn't know acquiring this job was viewed as a "war".
I am not a firefighter; but I am the fiance of one, one of the few that were hired off of exam #6019. The fair way , the right way, by studying and applying himself. With no family on this job - or a family member in this city. And yes he is a minority. I wouldn't want his life put at risk because the city needs to please the Vulcans agenda.
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12/16/2010 11:19:00 PM
I've lived in NYC and know it as well as anybody. What I describe are the problems a teacher (even an unselfish and dedicated one )can't fix. They're societies'problems.
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Pat 12/16/2010 9:12:00 PM
brenda berkman was one of the physically weakest firefighters I have ever worked with. She took a different...no...easier test then the male firefighter candidates took.It wasn't harder, it was easier! The FDNY needed more women, so they lowered their standards! What do you think of quotas?
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12/16/2010 8:20:00 PM
This situation is very much like the HESI nursing exit exam that must be passed in order to graduate from many nursing schools these days.
Questions are very similar and confusing. If you don't pass-you are not allowed to take the Board of Nursing exam. This "weeding out" not only allows the schools to claim a higher passing rate on the board exams but as a consequence, takes a lot of potential nurses off the street--while there is a shortage. Amazingly, foreign nurses are not required to take the HESI and can freely take the BON exam--since their pass/fail rate will not count against any schools.
The really sad part is that many nursing students scrimp and borrow money to get all the way through nursing school--even getting a high GPA--only to be denied the chance to practice their profession. i hope Mr. Trasher can one day do a followup story focusing on this problem
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Teachmeyou 12/16/2010 8:16:00 PM
If you think thats bad what about me. My father is a Black retired Firefighter and I still cant get on. By the way I passed the test also
Andre Williams
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12/16/2010 7:46:00 PM
let not forget that the NYFD does a great job when it comes to dealing with fires, but they seriously lack diversity when it comes to women and people of color. Personally i don't care who you are as long you are capable of doing the job. And if i wanted to be a firefighter, i would want to have the same chance just like everyone else. Remember Brenda Berkman?, she had to fight to become a firefighter. the exam she took was altered so she can be set up for failure.
read the story:
http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=11592
She was featured in a documentary on PBS and told her story on how she had to deal with sexual harassment and abuse and yes. she is white. Female firefighters in NY count for less that .3 %. even the percentage of black and Hispanic firefighters are less that 10%. the NYFD need to to a better job in that department.
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Rushamim 12/16/2010 6:41:00 PM
i've been teaching logic, math skills and test question comprehension to chinese kids at this ....i would TOTALLY teach firefighters and anyone else who needs to pass a test to get a job
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12/16/2010 6:36:00 PM
just read the book Ragtime, or watch the movie. What more can one say about race and the fire dept.?
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terry43 12/16/2010 6:15:00 PM
Steve Thrasher did a nice opening up various viewpoints of this complicated issue. How does the FDNY represent the population of NYC when over two thirds of the dept. doesn't reside there? Disparate Impact is not evidence of bias, it's closer to theory than fact. They never really found evidence of bias and never will. Excellent analogy with the "picogram" question - very poignant. BUT, it troubles me that so many FDNY members (including myself) live in areas that volunteer to fight fires. Many of the volunteers are members of the FDNY - so it's okay to do it for free Upstate of on LI and come to the city and get paid to do it, occupying firefighting jobs over city kids because they scored higher on a reading comprehension test. Over the past ten years the Vulcans should have focused on getting 10 points for candidates that graduated from city schools rather than trying to prove obviously fair tests bias. Some may say this is prejudice and downright unAmerican but until the residents of the surrounding counties fight for a paid force than I think this is very fair. As mentioned in the article, the FDNY has had firefighters and lieutenants work to help the Department of Administrative Services draft a better exam. DCAS ignored them and here we are today. It's simple NYC government red tape and inefficiency that prevented the sides from coming together. The FDNY wants a qualified candidate and the FDNY deserves that. But reading comprehension skills doesn't make a good firefighter.
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Pat 12/16/2010 5:27:00 PM
I must disagree with some of the descriptions some of the interviewees give when describing the FDNY. We do much more than just go to fires, and it is not "the city's best kept secret" as PW says. It is an extremely stressful, physically demanding job. Our line of duty injury rates as well as our line of duty death rates are much higher than those of any other city agency including the NYPD, which is more than 3 times as large. This job requires courage, dedication, and yes, even intelligence. On a side note, I would like to know what the Vulcan society thinks of the racial makeup of the city's department of social services, which is comparable in size to the FDNY but is 70% black, or the NYPD's traffic division, also overwhelmingly black and hispanic. Then there is the Department of Corrections, another agency which does not reflect the diversity of the city proportionately. What about the Department of Sanitation, which employs even fewer women than the FDNY? Why does it seem that these agencies are never given the same scrutiny as the FDNY? I would encourage the Village Voice to do some research (I found all of these statistics on the city's own webpage) and to show that diversity is not as important as its believed! Instead look at the results of this "lily white" department, as Paul Washington once explained it. Fire deaths are at an all time low, emergency responses are at all time highs, and we are doing it with fewer engine companies and smaller budgets. Finally, because I take this personally, how many of these white firefighters were injured or killed helping people of color? I think the answer will prove we are not the racist haters the Vulcans would like you to believe we are. God bless the people of New York who support firefighters who are qualified. Racial quotas will do nothing but reward underperformance in the name of diversity!
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Vulcans are cowards 12/16/2010 5:16:00 PM
Jenvon please go to Bellevue maybe they can help you
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Vulcans are cowards 12/16/2010 5:11:00 PM
AL do you read what you post? You refer to Garaufis writing about the 1960s and I'm saying he's not giving an accurate picture of the job In the 50's and 60's. Do you remember WWII and Korea? Many people of all colors got hired because of Vet credits.
There has been two Black Fire Commissioners Robert O. Lowery and Augustus Beekman over the past 45 years. The Vulcans never mentioned that because it kills their narrative. Why would a regular fireman or candidate concern themselves on who is sitting in that seat if they want the job?
The bottom line you failed to mentioned Garaufis stated the test was a fair but the results were biased. How could that be?
Why isn't Garaufis investigating the Department of Correction that is almost 80% black with a Black City Population of 25-30%?
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Mike 12/16/2010 4:57:00 PM
If this is something all fire fighters need to know to save lives (including their own). Then this question is no way biased. As an engineer, people need to use math to build and maintain items.
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motiph 12/16/2010 4:53:00 PM
FDNY will never mirror the population of NYC maybe THE NEIGHBORING COUNTIES (commuters tax) just like the NYS Court Officer with their 69.9 score for people with master degrees just crazy a rationale person can not believe someone who is born and nurtured in the inner city of NYS does not have interest in being one of the uniformed civil servants that they most likely see everyday blaring through the city streets saving lives and being paraded as heros of war what child especially a male child does not inspire to be one
for me and my childhood friends we made it a game similar to punch buggy (whenever you seen a certain car you punched the closes person to you in the arm and named the color and model) whenever we seen a NYC Fireman/Policeman that resembles or maybe was a black and or latino/hispanic man and if it was a women of whatever background that was a bonus punch so that childhood game should give NYC idea on how crazy this look to outsiders if children can see there is a problem
Lets create a solution instead of pointing fingers or downing one another
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motiph 12/16/2010 4:21:00 PM
i guess you never used a Traffic Light and or a Light Bulb ate peanut butter
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Kingsfr 12/16/2010 4:16:00 PM
Mtnlion, You asked,"Should firefighters really receive the level of compensation they do for a job that allows one to have another job on the side?"
Are you insinuating that firefighters work less hours then a "regular" job, thus able to work another job? Just so you know, the firefighter's schedule is 48 hours a week vs. 40 hours a week for other full-time jobs. This means firefighters are away from from their families more and if they need to work "on the side" that is even more time away from their families working to pay the bills.
The firefighter schedule is considered to many a plus when deciding to take a job in which your life is at risk and you can't guarantee that on any given day, you might not make it home to your family.
If, as you stated, "Maybe it is a little too great.", why didn't you take the test and become one of NYC's firefighters?
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motiph 12/16/2010 4:16:00 PM
you are in need of a remedy for the mutation the is taking form in your brain to make such a statement thinking that people of NYC especially NYC teachers who have dedicated their lives educating inner city youth
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motiph 12/16/2010 4:12:00 PM
before you put that out there research the history of NYC and FDNY
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motiph 12/16/2010 4:10:00 PM
you are getting close however NYC is at fault for all this because it should not take generations to see and correct a problem this is similar to the Tuskegee Airman
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motiph 12/16/2010 4:06:00 PM
don't allow politics to blind you into the revolving door when you feel you are in you are out
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motiph 12/16/2010 4:03:00 PM
NYC politics is not for the people but for the vote of the people
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motiph 12/16/2010 4:00:00 PM
preach
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motiph 12/16/2010 3:59:00 PM
don't hate the player hate the game however you may be too young to know/ remember but there was a time when this land/property owners were hiring arsonist/firebugs to burn down their property for the insurance most notable in the The Bronx
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motiph 12/16/2010 3:56:00 PM
that separation goes back to the migration of the two; to USA especially during the civil war
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motiph 12/16/2010 3:54:00 PM
you too are blind to the real cause on why the FDNY does not mirror the NYC population
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motiph 12/16/2010 3:52:00 PM
by your commit you are not a person that makes up the NYC population or have any knowledge of the NYC/NYS CIVIL SERVICE FIELD
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motiph 12/16/2010 3:49:00 PM
once again you too are naive to the history of FDNY
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cj 12/16/2010 3:46:00 PM
People who want to be firefighters , do a littlie reading before you take a ff test .HELLO please prepare before taking on a job that involes your life or someone elses life.ITS a job like no other.This question is a 5th grade math question and its racist? That is bs .
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motiph 12/16/2010 3:46:00 PM
it is obvious by your commit that you do not know of the history of the FDNY
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WTF 12/16/2010 3:21:00 PM
Trivializing what firefighters do is mistake. Unless you have personally crawled down a smoke filled hallway or been burned by the steam that comes back to you when you put water on a fire I suggest you not talk about things you know nothing of. It makes you look ignorant. The ratio of cops to firefighters in NYC is about 6 to 1. That's 6 cops to every firefighter. For a population of over 8 million people I would say approximately 10,000 firefighters is probably not preparing for a worst case scenario. As far as the compensation is concerned most firefighters can not afford to live in the neighborhoods they protect. No one gets rich doing this job. As the gentleman from Hartford pointed out the cost of living in NYC is very high. You should be embarrassed for having the nerve to have posted this, but no worries, when you call 911 we will still come to your house even though you don't think we deserve what we get.
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HTFD FFDawgcity24 12/16/2010 2:22:00 PM
Thats true , but on the other hand the FDNY has a lenthy academy wherethey teach you to be a FF and all the Jargon that they use there is no need to have a base line in it. It helps but no need, also why is there no questions to determine if the person on the other side of the pencil can absorb the infothat is going to be Taught to him or her no matter the race or gender.
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HTFD FFDawgcity24 12/16/2010 2:16:00 PM
Mr. Mtnlion44 I
take it that you are not a FF because if you were you would understand why we get the little compensation that we get. Im not a FF in FDNY but i am one in Hartford and to put in plainly, the pay for what we do on any given Sunday is peanuts. In NY the cost of living is so high that most of the FF need a second job to survive like in other municipalities. As far as the amount of FF have you looked out side your window lately the population calls for the amount of FF that FDNY has and also the physical make up of the city. So before stating that FF dont need to receive the pay for the job that they are doing just think you can sit on the bench of a pro basketball team and make a million, but go to work knowing that you might have to give your life for another and have people complain about the $70,000 you take home to your family. Thats ok by you right.
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12/16/2010 2:14:00 PM
Why do we need a black, white, latino, firefighter group??? Isn't this causing further dissention among the ranks? Why not work together as a group of firefighters? We need less diversity in the fire service. Can't we all just get along?
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Kalpal 12/16/2010 2:07:00 PM
No guild willing accpets members it does recognize as being worthy of membership. This guild denies the value of anyone they are not related to already.
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Aaron 12/16/2010 1:56:00 PM
What's racist is saying non-whites are incapable of correctly answering the test questions. EVEN IF the questions were biased, that's the world firefighters are going into and they need to comprehend the jargon that's in place. It's literally a matter of life and death.
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12/16/2010 7:43:00 AM
I think your comment is really rude, and woefully ignorant,
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Jenvon 12/16/2010 7:41:00 AM
While I am totally against racism, I wouldn't want to be a NYPD firefighter for fear that those racism employees would set me up to get killed in a fire. Leave it to them, my life is too valuable.
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zoey 12/16/2010 7:07:00 AM
this is so retarded...FDNY is racist because people who happen not to be white can't figure out simple math problems because there are too many big words involved? are you kidding me......
