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50 Cent vs. Cam'ron: Internet Beef

Posted by Tom Breihan at 5:37 PM, February 13, 2007

camgun.jpg
Seriously, WTF (Cam'ron portrait by Grant Siedlecki)

I'm going to go ahead and say that 50 Cent almost certainly does not read Status Ain't Hood; I'd be utterly flabbergasted and completely amped if he did. But at least to me, the most interesting thing about the still-gestating Cam'ron/50 Cent beef is the irrefutable evidence that someone in 50 Cent's camp has looked at Status Ain't Hood at least once. For a while, my friend Grant Siedlecki has been contributing occasional drawings to this blog. Last year, I went to see Cam'ron's movie Killa Season in its extremely limited theatrical engagement, and I asked Grant to do a drawing of Cam for the entry I wrote about it. Grant knew I hated the movie, so he did a completely awesome photorealistic pencil drawing of Cam with a gun to his head, the implication I guess being that Cam had totally shot himself in the head by putting out this piece of shit. When I saw the quickie video for 50's "Funeral Music," the Cam dis he sent out into the world this past Friday, my jaw just about scraped the ground. The video is mostly standard-issue post-Uncut Youtube rap video stuff: guys with bandannas on their faces standing on top of ATVs, girls in lingerie fondling diamond-studded guns, 50 looking smug. There's also a short and mean-spirited cartoon of Cam's Lamborghini getting shot up in DC and a clip from Killa Season where Cam offers to snitch on some people, which proves that someone in 50's camp also had to sit through all two and a half hours of Killa Season. But just as all this is ending, the video fades out on Grant's drawing, now with an epitaph for Cam's career etched underneath it. Grant and I exchanged completely bemused e-mails yesterday, which is the sort of thing you do when the drawing your friend did for your blog ends up in a music video made by the biggest rap star in the world. 50 didn't quote my review in his lyrics or anything, so he certainly doesn't owe me any royalties. Maybe he should break Grant off something; I have no idea how this stuff works. In any case, for anyone who was wondering, this is Status Ain't Hood's biggest and probably only contribution to rap. You're welcome.

As far as the beef itself goes, it's all pretty silly: yet another example of sensationalist attention-grabbing that has more to do with 50 Cent and Cam's desire to keep their names on people's mouths than to any genuine hostility between the two men. The chances that this thing will produce another "Ether" are exactly zero. The only thing about it that's really surprising is the speed with which it came into being. Last Thursday, my hard drive crashed, and on Friday morning I left to spend a weekend out of town. I was off the internet for less than four days, and when I came back, the gossip surrounding this beef had already pretty much played itself out. You know things are weird when rappers are responding to this stuff faster than bloggers. Cam'ron released his response to "Funeral Music" on the same day the video hit the internet. That means Cam had to hear the song and watch its video, write his response, run to the studio, record it, post it on the internet, and send it to radio stations, all in about the same amount of time it took me to load up my rental car. That's certainly industrious, but it also means we end up hearing whatever loose rhymes Cam had bouncing around in his head rather than any sort of vicious, planned-out response. Cam told Kay Slay the other day that this beef might last 120 rounds, but it used to be that rappers would save all their best material and then end everything in a round or two. Nobody needs to hear 120 songs' worth of Cam'ron and 50 Cent sniping at each other. Maybe the internet has ruined rap beef forever.

Of course, the issue started in a pretty ridiculous way. A week or two, 50 was on Hot 97 talking to Angie Martinez, and he made some sort of offhand comment about how Koch Records is a graveyard and he can shut down any Koch project. I'm pretty sure Cam has never actually released a record on Koch and never will, but a few of the Diplomats have. Cam was apparently hanging out in the Koch offices with the label's general manager, and the two of them decided decided to call the station to argue with 50. The exchange between the two of them, which has been all over the internet for a while now, was stupid: two rich men arguing about who's richer. Cam wanted to know why 50 let Prodigy release a solo album on Koch if Koch was a graveyard, a fair question, and he pointed out that Jim Jones has sold more records on an independent label than Lloyd Banks has sold on a major. He also got all emotional, screaming at 50 and generally acting the fool until Angie cut him off. 50 stayed calm and measured, repeatedly warning Cam not to turn this into something else, but he also came off like a complete asshole, stating matter-of-factly that Cam seemed to think he could compete with 50 and that he should think about that for a while. 50 seemed to get the better of the argument, but a few days later, a video emerged on the internet of Cam on the phone, laughing like a ninth-grader who successfully prank-called his science teacher. Cam, at least, didn't think he'd lost.

"Funeral Music," 50's initial assault, doesn't seem particularly damaging. Lyrically, it's mostly composed of vague gun-threats that he probably had lying around for months, and he only specifically mentions Cam a couple of times. Plenty of critics have already pointed this out, but the best part of the song comes on the outro, where 50 stops rapping and just generally talks shit, saying that Jim Jones is now the boss of Dipset and twisting Cam's lyrics around to make fun of him ("Computers putin', boopity-boopin'"). With its eerie music-box beat, "Funeral Music" might actually be the best 50 Cent song since "I'll Whip Ya Head Boy," but none of its attacks register as anything more than bored, lazy swipes. Cam's response is even less scathing: a quick, unfocused run-through of all the standard things that everyone mentions when they dis 50: he lives in Connecticut, he took his name from a real Brooklyn gangster, none of his acts sell anymore. Maybe in an attempt to recreate the brutal devastation of his "you look like Joe Camel" line from last year, he tells 50 that he looks like "a gorilla with rabbit teeth." He also attempts to clarify which members of Dipset have which meaningless honorary titles ("Jimmy ain't the president; he the CEO") and shouts out Kenneth McGriff, the guy who probably had 50 shot all those years ago. Cam's outro continues the weird-but-funny fashion fixation from last year's Jay-Z dis: "Whoever let you sign off on them G-Unit tank tops is stupid, just like your dumb ass! Them is brassiere tops!" But the only potentially damaging thing on the record is Cam's taunting "Curtis" yell.

Talking to Kay Slay, Cam bragged about all the battles he'd already won against Jay and Nas and Mase. All of those claims are debatable at best. The truth is that Cam's lazy word-obsessed rap style isn't particularly well-suited for battles. The only emotion he ever really conveys is a sort of flat, bemused contentment that occasionally turns into fond regret, as on nostalgia-haze remembrances like "Harlem Streets." One of the things I like about him is how calm and easy he sounds, how willing he is to shut out the world and get lost in his own words, a tendency that won't serve him well when he needs to muster spite and fire. 50, for his part, actually has ended the career of at least one major rapper (and holy shit, I heard "Put It On Me" on the radio a couple of days ago; he really did us all a huge favor). But 50's a few years and a few hundred million dollars removed from his heated younger self; these days, he'll trot out a couple of lame little laugh-lines at some less-famous rapper whenever he gets worried that people are forgetting about him, which is almost certainly what he's doing here. After bashing Jadakiss a couple of years ago, he said he wouldn't mind signing Jada to G-Unit; Jada didn't seem to understand that beef is never anything more than business for 50. Kay Slay seemed to understand as much when he was talking to Cam: "I don't really feel like it's personal with both of y'all." It's not. It's just something to do.

Still, both of these guys know how to rap, and it's not entirely inconceivable that the either of them could come up with a passionate and eloquent broadside. For a while, I've had an idea for a slow-day column where I'd compare the landscape of mid-00s NY rap to mid-90s pro-wrestling: Roc-A-Fella and Def Jam as the WWF, G-Unit as WCW, Dipset as ECW, D-Block as maybe like Ring of Honor or something. I haven't written that column, mostly because it's a terrible idea. But this could turn out to be the equivalent of when WCW signed Mike Awesome when he was still ECW World Champ, the attempt to push smaller competitors out of business altogether that backfired and stirred all sorts of shit up in the process. In "Funeral Music," 50 used the Cam thing to fire a quick shot at Jay-Z ("Word on the street is 50's not Jay / And Cam better stay out his way"). This could all get really interesting really quickly. More likely, though, Cam and 50 will just hack each other's MySpace pages.

Voice review: Greg Tate on 50 Cent's The Massacre
Voice review: Kris Ex on 50 Cent's Get Rich or Die Tryin'
Voice review: Jon Caramanica on Cam'ron's Purple Haze

comments

While it's tough to say that 50 Cent can ever be wrong when the premise of his argument stays that he has more money than someone, I think Cam pointed out the glaryingly obvious fact that G-Unit is not working as a crew or a record label. I think 50's next record will be huge (and probably really good, too), but besides his records and the clothing label, things could be going better for him. It was blatantly obvious that he was holding his tongue because he's got a bunch of old rich people depending on him to continue making money making them money, and for him to go crazy on the radio would not be a good look for that. Cam took advantage of this fact, and you're right when you say that "Curtiiissss" is actually pretty fucking funny and insulting. I also think that Dipset -- or, at least, Juelz and Jim -- are more visible right now than Banks and Yayo and whoever else (Buck's album getting pushed back seems to reflect this). Anyway, I'm surprised you didn't say anything about the Styles P-50 conversation, because that seems a lot more interesting.

Posted by: SordidPuppy at February 13, 2007 6:47 PM

I think you're pretty on point about this new 50/Cam beef. 50 Cent and Cam'ron are just about the most loathsome figures on the hip hop landscape right now.

If you think about it, this beef was sort of inevitable and years in the making as G-Unit and Dipset were vying for the post-Wu spot as the number one crew in hip hop that Wu-Tang sort of abdicated after they decided they weren't going to let RZA produce their albums for them anymore. Both of these groups are kind of eerily similiar in structure and both make highly cliched post-N.W.A. gangster rap.

For one, Cam'ron and 50 Cent are pretty much the asshole princes of hip hop. 50 strikes me as a man who would throw his grandmother under a bus if he feels he could sell a two extra copies of an album. You're absolutely right on the mark when you say his numerous and frequent beefs are just business to him. In his career, he's beefed or had some foul about Ja Rule, Jay-Z, Raekwon, Ghostface, RZA, Fat Joe, Jadakiss, Nas, Lil' Kim, Bobby Brown, Bryan McKnight, Keith Sweat, Harlem World, Mase, Mobb Deep, Ol' Dirty Bastard, Foxy Brown, Case, The Trackmasters, Slick Rick, Big Pun, Master P, Silkk the Shocker, Will Smith, Jada Pinkett, Timbaland, Missy Elliot, Joe, Jermaine Dupri, DMX, Da Brat, DJ Clue, Sticky Fingaz, Canibus, Heavy D, Juvenile, Blackstreet, Boyz II Men, Mister Cee, Busta Rhymes, Flipmode Squad, Kirk Franklin, Mike Tyson, Lauryn Hill, The Game, and I'm sure I'm missing about five to six people. He's built a career on shitting on rappers when they are down. A trait I find particulary loathsome on a human being.

Cam'ron, on the other hand, maybe the most irritating figure in hip hop(with the exception of maybe Jim Jones). Cam'ron is the hip hop equivalent of the rich privileged asshole in high school whose large sense of entitlement has basically made him both incredibly delusional and lazy. First of all, Cam's rhyme style has always come across as incredibly lazy so much so that he doesn't even bother to rhyme different words with each other. Cam is symptomatic of the death of lyricism in hip hop. Cam's not a lyricist but rather a "flower". A trend that started with Biggie and Method Man(both talented lyricists in their own right), was stolen and popularized by Jay-Z, bastardized by 50 Cent, and then sort of devolved into Young Jeezy. Cam's whole appeal derives from the fact that he makes nonsensical and lazy rhymes sound good. On top of that, he's unbelievably and even career suicidally arrogant despite the fact that he hasn't really accomplished anything musically. If you think about it, Cam'ron is basically a two hit wonder(The inexplicable critical handjob that is given the terrible Purple Haze excepted) who has somehow latched onto continued relevance because he's leader of a crew that is popular with young teenage rap fan boys. Basically, the same group that worships 50 and G-Unit as well and would be into Biggie, Nas, and Wu-Tang if they were born ten years earlier but unfortunately were born into a period in which hip hop if not dead is seriously diseased.

Basically, this beef stems from their desire to be King of the Suburbs (Sorry John Brown). Hopefully, they'll wipe each other out and I won't have to hear them ever again ruin the radio.

Posted by: DocZeus at February 13, 2007 7:29 PM

That clip is from Paid in Full, not Killa Season. Paid in Full is a good movie despite a Cam'ron appearance. He is not even bad in it. (Full disclosure: I hate the Dipshits)

Posted by: dead prezident at February 13, 2007 7:41 PM

Man, go back and re-watch 'Killa Season' it's like a John Cassavetes film or something. I'm not even joking, it's like one of the best movies ever made.

Posted by: brandonsoderberg at February 13, 2007 8:22 PM

So that's why Cam dresses all in pink. Because he's a "flower". It all makes sense now.

Posted by: BubsDepot at February 13, 2007 10:58 PM

i'm not following the BIG/Meth ----> Jay "flower" logic.

i personally find Fiddy's beefs amusing, though pretty much all you said is true -- he hasn't released many genuinely good disses, and they've all been self-serving rather than based on real animosity. considering how weak Cam's diss is, though, Fiddy's didn't have to be anything special.

i don't know that Cam really has a career left to destroy though. hasn't he been selling poorly since Purple Haze?

i saw someone comment the other day on another site 'bout how a lot of Dipstans he knew were white teenagers from New Jersey who saw them as the cool "underground" alternative to G-Unit, which is funny because i know this dude who matches that description perfectly.

Posted by: T.R.E.Y. at February 13, 2007 11:20 PM

"i'm not following the BIG/Meth ----> Jay "flower" logic."

For the first fifteen years odd years of hip hop's existence, the biggest weapon in an emcee's arsenal was your lyrics or rather what you said in a rap was what defined your worth as an emcee. Biggie and Meth sort of changed that. Your "flow" being defined as the way you say a rhyme or more accurately your delivery became the most important part of your game. It didn't matter if your lyrics were the second coming of Shakespeare if you couldn't "flow" than you weren't going to blow. This is precisely the reason alot of old school artists sound dated to modern ears. They weren't "flow-ers."

Biggie and Meth had two of the most original deliveries in hip hop. Go back and listen to "M.E.T.H.O.D. Man." He's basically rhyming about nothing for five minutes but what draws you in is the delivery.

Now, Jay-Z was the next evolution in the step. Jay-Z truly blew up after Big's death when he started to give up the high level lyricism from his Reasonable Doubt days. If you listen to the way, his "flows" on his biggest hits compared with normal album cuts are often "dumbed" down and less intricate. Jay-Z being extremely influential to the new breed of emcees influenced alot of modern deliveries.

One of my main beefs with modern hip hop is the death of lyricism. A lot of modern emcees are lyricists in the same sense that Nas or Rakim is a lyricist. They aren't really making their lyrics "poetic" for lack of better word. I haven't heard any new jack emcee writing a rhyme as poetic as "I'll never sleep because sleep is the cousin of death." Rather, we are in age of "punchline lyricists" which I find at least to be a lower form of the art. Lil' Wayne is the prototypical example of a "punchline lyricist" in which the set up of the line is analagous to the set up of a joke's punchline.

What strikes me as even more disconcerting as that while lyricism has died. I'm feel we are close to the "Death of Flow" and instead we are entering "The Age of the Adlib."

Take for example "We Fly High", the song is one of the great modern abortions of pop music and yet the song was inexplicably popular because of the ubqituous adlib "BALLIN!"that was shouted every five seconds of the song. Young Jeezy is basically the Patron Saint of this movement as 95% of his appeal is derived from his stupid adlibs on his songs.

Anyway, back to the original point. A "flower"(its hard to affect pronunciation in writing form) is somebody whose primary weapon in his repertoire is his flow. For example, Jay-Z is a flower. Cam'ron is a flower. Snoop is a flower Contrasting that, Nas is a lyricist. Common is a lyricst. Rakim is a lyricst. There is a difference in my mind.

Posted by: DocZeus at February 14, 2007 2:31 AM

Nas isn't a lyricist...he's a dope.


what about ILL WILL?

Posted by: mowneek at February 14, 2007 9:37 AM

Doc-
"I'll never sleep because sleep is the cousin of death" isn't something Nas thought of, it's sort of an old saying. I wouldn't know, but a Professor of mine said it was an African proverb.

Clipse: "Because the judge is saying life like it ain't someone's life"

That's pretty poetic, right?

Posted by: brandonsoderberg at February 14, 2007 12:01 PM

I've been thinking about writing something comparing 00s rap to 80s hair metal.

Posted by: rjd at February 14, 2007 1:47 PM

I've been thinking of writing something comparing 00s rap to 80s hair metal, but it seems to obvious to make very interesting reading.

Posted by: rjd at February 14, 2007 1:50 PM

I think you're pretty on point about this new 50/Cam beef. 50 Cent and Cam'ron are just about the most loathsome figures on the hip hop landscape right now.

If you think about it, this beef was sort of inevitable and years in the making as G-Unit and Dipset were vying for the post-Wu spot as the number one crew in hip hop that Wu-Tang sort of abdicated after they decided they weren't going to let RZA produce their albums for them anymore. Both of these groups are kind of eerily similiar in structure and both make highly cliched post-N.W.A. gangster rap.

For one, Cam'ron and 50 Cent are pretty much the asshole princes of hip hop. 50 strikes me as a man who would throw his grandmother under a bus if he feels he could sell a two extra copies of an album. You're absolutely right on the mark when you say his numerous and frequent beefs are just business to him. In his career, he's beefed or had some foul about Ja Rule, Jay-Z, Raekwon, Ghostface, RZA, Fat Joe, Jadakiss, Nas, Lil' Kim, Bobby Brown, Bryan McKnight, Keith Sweat, Harlem World, Mase, Mobb Deep, Ol' Dirty Bastard, Foxy Brown, Case, The Trackmasters, Slick Rick, Big Pun, Master P, Silkk the Shocker, Will Smith, Jada Pinkett, Timbaland, Missy Elliot, Joe, Jermaine Dupri, DMX, Da Brat, DJ Clue, Sticky Fingaz, Canibus, Heavy D, Juvenile, Blackstreet, Boyz II Men, Mister Cee, Busta Rhymes, Flipmode Squad, Kirk Franklin, Mike Tyson, Lauryn Hill, The Game, and I'm sure I'm missing about five to six people. He's built a career on shitting on rappers when they are down. A trait I find particulary loathsome on a human being.

Cam'ron, on the other hand, maybe the most irritating figure in hip hop(with the exception of maybe Jim Jones). Cam'ron is the hip hop equivalent of the rich privileged asshole in high school whose large sense of entitlement has basically made him both incredibly delusional and lazy. First of all, Cam's rhyme style has always come across as incredibly lazy so much so that he doesn't even bother to rhyme different words with each other. Cam is symptomatic of the death of lyricism in hip hop. Cam's not a lyricist but rather a "flower". A trend that started with Biggie and Method Man(both talented lyricists in their own right), was stolen and popularized by Jay-Z, bastardized by 50 Cent, and then sort of devolved into Young Jeezy. Cam's whole appeal derives from the fact that he makes nonsensical and lazy rhymes sound good. On top of that, he's unbelievably and even career suicidally arrogant despite the fact that he hasn't really accomplished anything musically. If you think about it, Cam'ron is basically a two hit wonder(The inexplicable critical handjob that is given the terrible Purple Haze excepted) who has somehow latched onto continued relevance because he's leader of a crew that is popular with young teenage rap fan boys. Basically, the same group that worships 50 and G-Unit as well and would be into Biggie, Nas, and Wu-Tang if they were born ten years earlier but unfortunately were born into a period in which hip hop if not dead is seriously diseased.

Basically, this beef stems from their desire to be King of the Suburbs (Sorry John Brown). Hopefully, they'll wipe each other out and I won't have to hear them ever again ruin the radio.


Your so right, especially 50 cent & G-Unit, I Truly oppose this mess from the very beginning, they have made rap into the number#1 rouge genre on earth and now, some person compares them to N.W.A?

Bullshit.

They need to get out of mainstream rap so we can take back our hip-hop for the people.

Posted by: thebest at February 14, 2007 3:18 PM

And 50 has truly made hip-hop more worse than any other rapper combined, this goes back to the MC Hammer/Vanilla Ice aka the great depression of hip-hop.

Posted by: thebest at February 14, 2007 3:20 PM


"Clipse: "Because the judge is saying life like it ain't someone's life"

That's pretty poetic, right? "

The Clipse are interesting dilemma because I haven't quite figure out where they fit in yet. They have a tendency to fall into the new school habit of relying too much on punchlines but they certainly do have a more poetic quality than a lot of new school emcees. The Clipse have been kicking around the game for 10 years or so it isn't completely surpising. I think if I had to qualify them I'd put them as lyricists as opposed to "flow-ers."

As for the sleep is the cousin of death line, I always considered that to be Nas' most recognizable line so I always figured that was his creation so if it wasn't than I should have picked another line of his to make a point(and there are plenty of others.) I kind of think Nas' as the last link between old school emceeing and new school emceeing.

Posted by: DocZeus at February 14, 2007 7:14 PM

DocZeus: So? Shit changed. You're talking different types of skill, and one isn't necessarily any better or more worthwhile than the other.

I'm going to refer you to Noz's post at XXL about dudes complaining about hip hop today: http://xxlmag.com/online/?p=6759.

As Noz posted:

"I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now, what I’m with isn’t it, and what is it seems weird and scary to me."
- Abraham Simpson, 1996

Posted by: saturdayclub at February 14, 2007 9:56 PM

DocZeus: So? Shit changed. You're talking different types of skill, and one isn't necessarily any better or more worthwhile than the other.

I'm going to refer you to Noz's post at XXL about dudes complaining about hip hop today: http://xxlmag.com/online/?p=6759.

As Noz posted:

"I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now, what I’m with isn’t it, and what is it seems weird and scary to me."
- Abraham Simpson, 1996

Posted by: saturdayclub at February 14, 2007 9:57 PM

Doc-
I'm legitimately confused as to how the Clipse are lyrical but Biggie or even Method Man are not. Can you explain it?

I think this is exactly why having any kind of "rules" about what rap (or really anything) can be is problematic: you'll inevitably contradict yourself. Why not just enjoy what you like, why is it necessary to justify or intellectualize one's taste?

Posted by: brandonsoderberg at February 15, 2007 10:39 AM

Brandon,

You misunderstand me. I am simply saying that the trend in which "flow" became the dominant aesthetic started with Biggie and Meth. Biggie and Meth are totally lyricists. Biggie is one of the greats too. I'm simply saying that Biggie and Meth are influential in changing the tide in hip hop.

If you would rather hear it put a bit more coherently than I suggest picking up Kool Moe Dee's book on the 50 Greatest Emcees. He explains it a better than I do.

Posted by: DocZeus at February 15, 2007 12:20 PM

The trend of the flow being more important than the lyrics didn't start with Biggie or Meth. This is a West Coast innovation as the west is known for more melodic music that's more conducive to flowing rather than chanting. It began a few years earlier than Biggie with the greatest flower of all time, Snoop Dogg. When he started riding the beat rather than attempting to impress you with his metaphors, rappers all over the West changed their approaches. Biggie was probably the first on the east to do so. Snoop is admittedly a huge influence on Biggie(I doubt that Meth borrowed anything from Snoop Doog. The Wu-Tang style emphasizes merging lyric, flow, freestlye and abstract metaphors. It is something unique to Staten Island).

More importantly, no one is concerned that Tom, our oh-so-accurate "music critic" hasn't corrected his error about where the clip at the end of 50's video is from? It's Paid in Full, not Killa Season. It takes place at the end of the movie after Wood Harris realizes that Cam has double crossed everyone and killed Mekhi Phifer. He sets up Killa Cam for a big fall and Cam snitches on folks to save himself. You really think Cam would portray himself as a snitch in his own movie? Toooooooommmmmmm! Toooooooommmmmmmmm!

Posted by: dead prezident at February 15, 2007 2:51 PM

dead prez,

yeah, you're right. Snoop is definitely an important part of the "flow" trend in emceeing. I forgot to mention him. Meth, Big and Snoop are the Holy Trinity Of Flow.

Although, its generally considered Rakim is the emcee that "created" flow or at least, the emcee that is credited for doing it.

Posted by: DocZeus at February 15, 2007 3:52 PM

Doc-
I did misunderstand, my apologies. And yeah, I do see what you mean about Big and Meth's influence on flow. I've read Kool Mo Dee's book, that also helps me see what you're saying.
I guess my conflict with all of this is that these assertions of who actually raps or who flows are really conservative. Rap is something of a post-positive art form and I'm always a little frustrated when there's suddenly a wall as to just how "post-positive" it can be. I do not know if you are singularly advocating your rules of lyricist vs. flow but I find it disturbing because it's so oppressive.

Posted by: brandonsoderberg at February 15, 2007 5:09 PM

"I do not know if you are singularly advocating your rules of lyricist vs. flow but I find it disturbing because it's so oppressive."

Brandon,

I'm not sure what you mean by a post-positive art form. I'm not familiar with the term but I'm not advocating as a steadfast rules to classification of emcees. Like any classification, there are grey lines and blurring. Most emcees Post-Rakim "flow", at least, anyone's who are any good at all flow. It's probably the most difficult aspect of the craft to master akin to a singer learning to sing on pitch and in harmony. However, I guess I'm saying is that the Post millenium breed of emcees, I don't find that lyrically intricate or impressive such as Cam'ron. They are too punchliney for my tastes. I'd also like to say that doesn't mean I don't enjoy their music. I can get down to Lil Wayne's ghostwriter's masterpiece, The Carter II, as much as the next man.

Posted by: DocZeus at February 15, 2007 5:38 PM

Ya all loosing track of the thread. The main point is 50 is a cocky arrogant asshole not to say that Cam is not. But, as someone said in an earlier post, 50 looks for this kind of shit cuz he wants that kind of publicity. The problem is that he's not the old 50. He's not half the 50 he once was, matta fact 50 is wack. Where does he come off talkin about "Cam really thinks he can compete with me". Dipset is better lyrically than G-Unit any day of the week.
This is bound to turn into a G-Unit vs. Dipset beef. Which I agree was years in the making. However, both lyrically and in the streets 50's camp cant compare. The nicest nigga on G-Unit is probably Banks and even he's fallen off. If it turns into a Dipset vs G Unit beef niggaz like JR, Hell Rell, n 40-Cal gonna get involved so Cam n Jim Jones is gonna be the least of G Unit's worries. And for those who think Juelz is all commercial n shit listen to his mixtapes before ya think that...that nigga is SICK. And one last thing about Cam. Cam is nice. He aint the nicest nigga in Dipset, but he is nice, his flow as well as himself has gotten lazy over the years but the nigga's got talent. Check his old shit from back when he used to roll wit Big L, Lord Finesse, Mase (when he wuz nice: Murda Ma$e), check one of they tracks like "Da Graveyard" or "American Dream" Cam ripped that shit. Cam has some talent he just chooses not to use it as much anymore

Posted by: PeOpLe$ at February 15, 2007 7:16 PM

OO...and one more thing. WHO THE FUCK IS FIFTY TO TALK ABOUT ENDIN SOMEONE'S CAREER??? GAME ATE THAT NIGGA AND HIS WHOLE CAMP FOR BREAKFAST N IM STILL WAITIN FOR FIFTY TO COME BACK FROM THAT....50'S CAREER IS AT BEST LYIN UP IN DA HOSPITAL IN CRITICAL CONDITION

Posted by: PeOpLe$ at February 15, 2007 7:41 PM

Ya all loosing track of the thread. The main point is 50 is a cocky arrogant asshole not to say that Cam is not. But, as someone said in an earlier post, 50 looks for this kind of shit cuz he wants that kind of publicity. The problem is that he's not the old 50. He's not half the 50 he once was, matta fact 50 is wack. Where does he come off talkin about "Cam really thinks he can compete with me". Dipset is better lyrically than G-Unit any day of the week.
This is bound to turn into a G-Unit vs. Dipset beef. Which I agree was years in the making. However, both lyrically and in the streets 50's camp cant compare. The nicest nigga on G-Unit is probably Banks and even he's fallen off. If it turns into a Dipset vs G Unit beef niggaz like JR, Hell Rell, n 40-Cal gonna get involved so Cam n Jim Jones is gonna be the least of G Unit's worries. And for those who think Juelz is all commercial n shit listen to his mixtapes before ya think that...that nigga is SICK. And one last thing about Cam. Cam is nice. He aint the nicest nigga in Dipset, but he is nice, his flow as well as himself has gotten lazy over the years but the nigga's got talent. Check his old shit from back when he used to roll wit Big L, Lord Finesse, Mase (when he wuz nice: Murda Ma$e), check one of they tracks like "Da Graveyard" or "American Dream" Cam ripped that shit. Cam has some talent he just chooses not to use it as much anymore

Who Cares, Both Dipset and especially Gay-Unit have truly corrupted our culture and made hip-hop go for the worse this time, it's time for this pop rap and especially this G-Unit regime to end, cause it has become the biggest cancer to hip-hop and the music industry.

Real Change needs to come.

Posted by: thebest at February 15, 2007 8:03 PM

DocZeus,

You know, I wouldn't say that that Ra "created" flow. He refined it. He made it more complex and taught people how to put more syllables into a bar, but his rhymes were still all about the lyrical content. Snoop was about melting into the beat and allowing the flow to become one with the music.

Tom still ain't correct his error about the Paid in Full clip. I guess it would mess up his stupid joke about someone having to sit through 2 hours of Killa Season.

Thomas, you better learn how to talk to us.

Thommmmmaaaaassss!

Posted by: dead prezident at February 15, 2007 11:45 PM

Look here it is, the scene from Paid in Full that is in the 50 Cent video. The scene starts at about starts at the 3:00 minute mark and it is clear that this is Paid in Full and not Killa Season as Wood Harris is in the full clip and he's not in Killa Season (according to http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0798786/fullcredits). He does, however, star with Cam'ron in Paid in Full.

Check it out, Thommmaaaaaasssss, then correct yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loTOBBkppfs

Posted by: dead prezident at February 16, 2007 12:04 AM

OK fine, it's Paid in Full. Jesus.

Posted by: Tom Breihan at February 16, 2007 11:37 AM

Doc-
Unrelated but, thanks for the input on my blog and stuff, it is greatly appreciated.

As for my comments, my apologies for being such a pretentious douche (seriously) but what I meant is, Positivism in the sense of something being absolute. Since like, the late 1800's there's been a lot of dudes who disagree that anything is absolutely true, that anything is objective. Many argue that African-American art is unequivocally "post-positive" because it is always in opposition to the mainstream "truths" created primarily by white and white-established art. Blah blah blah, the point is, when Chuck D. goes "motherfuck him [Elvis] and John Wayne" he is being post-positive in that he's somehow challenging the American Canon or something. Anyways, my point is, many would argue that rap is post-positive, post-modern, post-any-absolutes. So, it strikes me as odd and even frustrating when rap goes so post-modern that style becomes (or replaces) substance and then there's a problem with that because it's gone too far.

Wow, I feel like this was pretty pointless now, I don't know why I even started this. My apologies Doc.

Posted by: brandonsoderberg at February 16, 2007 6:31 PM

Thoooooooooooomas,

I win.

Posted by: dead prezident at February 17, 2007 3:44 PM

Um, positivism is a school of thought in epistemology - I don't see the connection. Anyway, I like the "Age Of The Ad-Lib" concept. I kinda like that ad-lib stuff myself, but it does get old after a while.

Posted by: tray at February 20, 2007 2:44 AM

Really 50cent is rich , but that should not make feel so superior , he's already losing some of his clique , like game.llody bank and mob dep gon soon go solo

Posted by: modo at April 7, 2007 11:37 PM

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