Tim Heidecker and Eric Wareheim on Ball Jokes, John C. Reilly, and their Awesome Show
Tim and Eric Awesome Show Great Job! runs every Sunday night in 11-minute episodes on the Cartoon Network's Adult Swim at 12:30 am.
"We have dick jokes and ball jokes and fart jokes and dry comedy and sort of intellectual comedy and 'ooh-ma-ma.' We try to keep things balanced."
Tim and Eric, respectively
If you're not into fake vomit and mock turtlenecks, here's some good news: There are plenty of comedians for you to like besides Tim Heidecker and Eric Wareheim. The bad news, of course, is that you'll miss out on some of the most absurdly inventive humor to feature on your TV/PC/iPhone lately. The creators of The Tim and Eric Awesome Show, Great Job! are not yet household names, but given their growing number of die-hard fans, may soon achieve that status--almost certainly if said household is under the age of 40 and favors ball jokes. Heidecker and Wareheim have been busy taping The Awesome Show's 20-episode third season on Adult Swim (which premiered this past Sunday, July 27), releasing a DVD of seasons one and two, and staging their live tour, the aptly-named Tim and Eric Awesome Tour, which passed through the Highline Ballroom in late April. I sat down with them to learn their thoughts on random humor, what happens when you search for "Doors horny" on YouTube, and about upcoming projects that may or may not involve Dr. Steve Brule.
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It seems that people are either really into Tim and Eric, or they aren't. There's not a lot of in-between. Why?
Eric Wareheim: Tim and I have a set of rules that that we go by in the comedy world, which is just, 'Use what we think is funny.' We don't do any popular culture and we don't do a lot of stuff that people can relate to. It's one of those things where you're either in the club, or you're way out of the club. It confuses and angers a lot of people when they don't get it--when they don't understand why Chippy is funny.
It angers people?
Eric Wareheim: Yeah. The first show we did, Tom Goes to the Mayor, one, it was just very different than other cartoons, and two, the pacing is different, the jokes were different, and just the way the stories go over is different. It freaks people out when they don't get stuff, and their first reaction is like, "Okay, fuck that."
Tim Heidecker: Yeah, you become defensive, because you feel your intelligence is being questioned if you don't get it. [Pauses] And maybe it's just not funny to people. Comedy is so subjective. I mean, the most successful shows on TV are apparently comedies that we don't find funny.
One of the things that makes the show challenging to watch are the 'unfunny' bits; the sketches that you can't readily dissect into traditional elements of comedy. Like the one where you are both rolling around on the ground, yelling "ooh-ma-ma" over and over again and breaking things. What is the role that these skits--which are disconcerting and feel somehow 'wrong'--play in your shows?
Tim Heidecker: First of all we do think it's funny, but we acknowledge that there may not be a literal or apparent punch line in the sketch. But there is a emotional reaction to the repetition; to the mood that it evokes. It's a 'why would they do that' joke. You're laughing at the craziness of, "Why are they doing that? It's absurd."
Eric Wareheim: You can't break it down in terms of a traditional comedy sketch. But it makes you feel things on almost a level that a horror movie would. With a lot of stuff we do, you're put in this bizarre environment and you are forced to watch things over and over. When I first viewed it, I didn't start laughing until about thirty seconds into it when I realized that it was not going to stop any time soon. And that's when it kicks in.
I compare it to when I was growing up,--when I first saw a crazy movie, like Twin Peaks or A Clockwork Orange. You can't even understand what you're seeing; you're figuring out as you're watching, and it makes you think a little bit; you're exploring. Those are my favorite bits, when you're trying to figure it out as you're going through it, not "Here's the punch line."
One fan of Tom Goes to the Mayor wrote us a lengthy, articulate email saying, "I watched your show, and I didn't laugh once. And then the next day, driving to work, I had to pull over because I was laughing so hard, because finally, it sunk in." It's the grand scheme of what we're doing, rather than just one moment. Once you figure out that world, everything becomes a lot more enjoyable.
Tim Heidecker: It's all about balance. It's not an entire show made up of ooh-ma-ma's, we have dick jokes and ball jokes and fart jokes and dry comedy and sort of intellectual comedy and ooh-ma-ma. We try to keep things balanced. When ooh-ma-ma sits out on its own, it's like it could be something that you see at P--what's it called--PS1. It's like a video art piece. But in the midst of the show, for pacing...
Eric Wareheim: Our first films were right out of film school and they weren't viral YouTube clips; they were little experiments Tim and I were doing. They weren't comedy bits. And that's how we got started; it didn't have any kind of set outline, and we still make stuff that way to this day.
To go back to the pacing of the show, the TEASGJ, it's eleven and a half minutes long. Do you think it would work as a longer show?
Tim Heidecker: If we had to make a full length, 22-minute show we'd figure out a way to make a show that worked at that length. But the eleven minutes is very cozy for us. . . I'm always amazed at how much stuff we put into a show; it's so packed, so there's a lot production that goes into making those eleven minutes, probably as much production as a normal sketch show would. Because it's not a lesser amount of sketches, really, it's just that the sketches themselves are short.
Eric Wareheim: I feel like the length of the bits are super-important: To be able to get out of them whenever you want, rather then some Saturday Night Live thing where you sit on them for five to ten minutes; it just destroys it after a while.
How do you guys divide up the work? Is one of you the video editing guy and is one of you. . .
Tim Heidecker: It used to be a little bit that way, and now we have a team that does a lot and Eric and I can kind of stand back. But I do a bit more of the music, and Eric does a bit more of the editing, watching stuff. But it always comes down. . . we direct together. We have our strengths; weaknesses.
Eric Wareheim: It's a real give and take. We both do everything. It's a very 50% kind of situation.
On the show, you always joke about fighting with each other. Do you fight in real life, ever?
Tim Heidecker: To a degree; nothing damaging. It's been pretty amazing. But you're basically in a full-time creative relationship, in television, which can be stressful, and we're both very strong, big-headed personality types.
Eric Wareheim: But every fucking day, we just have to check ourselves, and be like, "Look what we're getting paid for." That calms me down sometimes. This is ridiculous that we're on TV. It's amazing.
Tim Heidecker: We always love creating that tension on the show as our characters Tim and Eric. We love that these guys are kind of idiots and egocentric and all these terrible things, and completely self-conscious. Those personality traits come out on the show, of being mean to each other in weird ways.
Tell me about some of your regular guests on the shows. Not the celebrities, but people like James Quall, David Liebe Hart, Richard Dunn. . .
Tim Heidecker: It's a mixture of actors, and real performers. David Liebe Hart is a real performer. He is exactly how you see him on the show in real life. He is just a unique man on this planet.
Eric Wareheim: James Quall, his jokes are all his, we just put a stage in front of him and he does his thing.
This is all their own material?
Tim Heidecker: Well, David Liebe Hart's songs, we write them with him.
Eric Wareheim: He comes up with these concepts, real things that he believes in, like the Star Korendor and the Korendians.
He actually believes in the Korendians?
Eric Wareheim: Yes, he does. He'll come in with concepts, and we say, all right, we can write a song about that.
Tim Heidecker: He has maps, and names, all sorts of stuff. Those were his puppets. And when he comes and complains that his puppet is missing a shoe, our role in that is to say "the puppet doesn't need a shoe." And that's our involvement.
Eric Wareheim: We try to stay as far away from it, and try not to manipulate it or exploit [him and the performers] in an evil way.
So, how does that work? Are they aware that people watching the show are laughing at them, and not with them?
Tim Heidecker: They are aware that they are on a show, a comedy show, and they are performing, and they love to be on television. I don't know how conscious they are of that, you know, that the joke is that they are not exactly responsible for the joke.
Eric Wareheim: For example, Palmer Scott, you know that guy? The "sit on you" guy. He's a theater actor. And he knows that he has a funny fat body, and that when he dances, that's silly. And he knows that people are laughing at him. He goes to the YouTube page and he's like, 'Look at that fat child molester.' I mean, he gets it. And he doesn't care. He's been trying for 15 years to do something in Hollywood, and we put him on TV, and he knows, when he comes out on stage, he's going to be a superstar. So they know that. People in Hollywood have that sense of I'll-do-fucking-anything. Another example: when we were shooting Beaver Boys, there was this woman. We told everyone, you'll probably get puked on in this scene; if you don't want to do it, just tell us. And she was like, she wanted more money, but she asked "If you give me a line, you can puke whatever you want." That is some crazy desperation. And that's also what we do on the show with actors, too, is show that "I'll do anything to get on TV" thing.
So the actors on the show know they are putting themselves out there for a laugh at their own expense. But to go back to David Liebe Hart. . .
Tim Heidecker: David Liebe Hart is a fringe performance artist in the sense of outsider art like the Shaggs or Wesley Willis. He's just this guy that's fascinating. He's definitely not a normal guy. We would never say that. He is a weird man. He is crazy. And he is very in our life.
Eric Wareheim: We've pretty much adopted him as our dad.
Tim Heidecker: And, you know, everybody's happy in the situation, because he loves being on the show, he loves the attention that he gets. All he's ever wanted to do is be an actor on TV. And we love the naturalness of the way he delivers himself. You know, it's a gray line of what the rules are. We're not throwing bagels with cream cheese at him. We treat him the same way we treat ourselves and John C. Reilly, and Tom Skerritt; anyone that comes on the show, we're like "You're going to get fucked with, and we're going to put any kind of moment in, whether it's an acting moment, or a real moment, whatever truly is a laugh or an uncomfortable situation, that's what you're going to put on there. We go out there and do the same thing.
Are you concerned that one day he's going to go out there and realize, "Wait--these guys don't believe in the Korendians. Am I the joke to them?"
Eric Wareheim: I don't think so. We know him too well, he's just so happy to be doing it.
And what is your intention: is the audience supposed to be laughing at the performers? With them?
Eric Wareheim: It's definitely a combination. Palmer Scott's thing, you're laughing because he's fat, and dancing silly, but you're also laughing with him, because the lyrics are so ridiculous. Same with David, his lyrics are so ridiculous and silly.
Tim Heidecker: And it wouldn't work with an actor; there's a genuineness to it that makes it funny. Part of it is that we're laughing at him. If you're watching the show, and you like the show, I mean, you're laughing at him, and you're laughing at what he believes in.
Eric Wareheim: But when he performs live, there's a sweetness there; when people see him they embrace him and cheer him.
Tim Heidecker: When you're watching you're kind of rooting for him. We're trying to make a weird show. Our goal is to freak people out and make them laugh and make them feel uncomfortable. And sometimes it's going to take getting that close to somebody. Literally getting that close, with a camera, to upset you. And you're not going to get it by just getting an actor to do it. You have to get real people that are street performers. And make sure you don't cross the line where you're taking advantage of somebody.
How do you find these guys?
Eric Wareheim: We found David Liebe Hart when our assistant brought in a drawing that he did of her that we posted up on the board. When we were thinking of ideas for the show, we were like, why don't we get this guy in. We were auditioning a bunch of people, seeing how they were in front of the camera. And he brought in his next door neighbor, James Quall. . .
Tim Heidecker: And he just started doing impressions. And they were the worst impressions ever. They were all the same voice. And we said: you're coming back next week, and you're going to be in front of the camera, and we're going to put you in a tuxedo, and give you a little stage makeup, and shoot it, and see what we can get.
What don't you see eye-to-eye on with reviewers and general public?
Tim Heidecker: Well, the "random" thing doesn't make sense to me, because the show is not random. It's thought out; there's usually some kind of story that has a resolution. It might not make logical sense, and it might not be possible in the real world, but there's not really an episode I can think of that was so absurd it had no anchor to it.
How do you feel about the people who interpret your humor differently than it was intended?
Eric Wareheim: It's fine. I was thinking about that exact same thing last night. Someone was watching one of our bits, and he was laughing so hard. He seemed like one of those dudes where we were like, "You're not getting it how we intended to," but we don't care. We love things for different reasons. That's the best thing about it, that there are all these different levels you can appreciate it on.
Tim Heidecker: As far as criticism goes, there's a bit of ego-bruising that happens if someone doesn't like it, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. good reviews are better, because they keep you on the air, but most people that write these message boards and real reviews, unless they are really cool, or really love their job, are generally writing to write as cleverly as they can. So even when you get a good review, it's full of snarky little reactions, and I read it and I'm like, who cares what this person thinks? As soon as it leaves our office, I'm pretty much,. . .the fun part was making, it. . .. But someone writing "I like this sketch, I didn't like that sketch,"--it's like, so what?
Eric Wareheim: Usually when it comes to something being really popular, Tim and I will just start to kill it, because we don't ever want to get to the point of it being oversaturated with it, where people are like, ugh, you guys are just squeezing the blood out of this.
What's an example of that?
Eric Wareheim: Casey and His Brother. Which I'm on the fence about, because I love doing it so much. . .
Tim Heidecker: But there's only so much you can do there. There are only so many nursery rhymes you can write.
Eric Wareheim: We're trying to find a new Casey. We're doing a band called Pussywhip Gangbang. It's inspired by the Doors after Jim Morrison died. You've got to watch this on YouTube. Type in "doors horny." They did this German performance for television, and it's the worst music, and they look so dumb, and it's so lame. That's the kind of feel we're trying to go for.
How much YouTubing do you do? How much time do you spend watching cable access television for research?
Tim Heidecker: I think I get a lot more of my ideas from actual real television. We got kind of branded as this kind of cable-access, YouTube thing. A lot of funny YouTube clips are from real television. Real television is plenty of fodder. Real commercials, real TV shows. Cable access to me, it's always the same, it's always the same set. We mined that years ago, that's in the back of our brain, we know exactly what that is.
Eric Wareheim: When we do cable access, it's almost not like we're parodying it, it's just how we would do things if we had the opportunity. Like when we first started out making stuff, we had no money, which is why the green screen looks so shitty. It's not like we were trying to go for this look.
Tim Heidecker: But I think we embraced it, too. We were completely fine with the way our stuff looked.
Eric Wareheim: We were never like, "We need to get these sets awesome." We just kind of liked it.
How would you describe your show, what your type of humor is? I have a difficult time describing it to anybody.
Eric Wareheim: Dave Eggers called it a nightmare--like watching a real nightmare. Which I love. Sometimes you're thrown into moments when you should not be there, and it's horrible. Tim and I love awkward moments; we love seeing people that should not be in front of a camera, that kind of sensation. Then we also like super-silly ball jokes every once in a while.
Tim Heidecker: I think that will be left to somebody years from now to put a name on it.
We don't really associate with very much else, except maybe some British shows.
So you feel disconnected from the rest of what's considered comedy today?
Tim Heidecker: There are a few people. I love the stuff that Will Forte does on Saturday Night Live, and Zach Galifianakis, A.D. Miles—people who have done our show and are generally like, "Oh, you guys are going for the same thing."
Eric Wareheim: I think the major difference is that we're doing a sketch show but it's not a sketch show, that's why we can't relate. It's not like Mr. Show, or SNL, in the way that it's presented with this set and this comedy routine. We do sketches, but it's just presented in such a different way that there's not a lot of other things right now like that.
Tim Heidecker: Maybe this isn't the best way to say it, but Saturday Night Live, there's a band that plays like blues, rock-jazz music. That's not funny. When you look at our show, from the beginning to the end, there's no frame around it--there's no "Hey you know, we're like, a couple of guys, and we're nice, and now we're going to do comedy, right now!" From the second the frame starts to the end, everything is supposed to be the show. We're not out there "putting on" a show, we're making a show that is intentionally the way it is.
Eric Wareheim: Same thing with our live show. Before the show, you're not going to hear the Strokes. You're going to hear Muzak all the way up until we play. Because we want you to be in an environment that's not hip. We want you to be in the Tim and Eric world, from start to finish.
Do you see any evolution to your show, over the years? I'm talking about the TEASGJ but I'm also talking about your work in general.
Tim Heidecker: Yeah. I think, in a lot of ways, the people that we've hired have brought their own vision, their own sensibility to the show--Doug Lussenhop and John Krisel mostly. Our abilities have gotten better, probably. The necessity to produce this much content in a certain time period changes the way you write, produce.
Eric Wareheim: We've also realized that experimentation is sometimes the key to what we do, rather than evolving in your writing, writing the best joke, it's more like, how smartly can you put this guy in this room with this other guy and see what happens. That takes a while to fine-tune that and you kind of know that you're going to get some gold, after doing it for so many years with different kinds of actors. You sort of figure out what's going to work, or how to push people in the right way.
What are some experiments that went really well?
Eric Wareheim: Steve Brule [played by John C. Reilly] has his own show, and Tim had the idea to get a real infomercial woman. So we flew this woman down from San Francisco. She actually makes those things, she makes, like the Power Oven, or something.
My mom buys those things.
Eric Wareheim: She came down, and she was real. John's an actor, but he plays a lunatic. And the combination. . . we didn't tell them too much, it was just like, "Action!" And it sort of just came together. It's part real and part. . . fucked up. And no one knows where the jokes are and we keep all the blank stares in. What works the best is when we put a comedian like Will Forte with a non-comedian or an actress. And that combination produces something real.
A lot of blank stares?
Eric Wareheim: Yeah, tons of blank stares.
Are there any experiments you thought have gone well?
Tim Heidecker: Well, 'ooh-mama' was sort of unplanned. It was sort of an editing experiment.
Do people talk about that one a lot?
Tim Heidecker: Yeah, yeah. I mean a fair amount of preparation goes into some stuff. But not always. I remember Spaghet being something that wasn't very well thought out. I had an image of the hair and the red turtleneck. I kind of remember going "Hey, he could look kind of like that." It's all just working through stuff. I didn't realize it was going to look that awesome until it was all done. And thank God.
Where did the wig in that skit come from, anyway?
Tim Heidecker: Actually, it's beard hair. It was kind of like a throwaway idea, a character I would do out at a party one night, a couple years ago. And we were like, we could do this, and I'll dress up like this guy, we'lll make a couple cheap little sets. I don't remember anyone being like, 'Wow, this is going to be the best thing ever' until we were there and the costume was there. There's a lot of sitting around on a script and being like, 'Well, you know, we'll just try it.'
How do you know what will be a hit?
Tim Heidecker: If it makes our office laugh, that's usually a pretty good sign. Sometimes it's not—sometimes they're rooting for that bit, because they were there, there's kind of an inside joke status to it. But we always say something's going to be "v" for viral. Anything that transcends our awkward, weird, uncomfortableness, like the Poop Tube, where you can wrap your head around it, and understand why that's funny. Ooh-mama's not going to be something that's not going to be a big hit with people who don't know the show. . . But something like Spaghet, people that don't know the show might be able to get.
Is there any product that you would ever want to represent?
Eric Wareheim: Wham-O toys contacted us, because they saw our hacky sack pros bit, and they were like, would you guys do a commercial for us for the Superball and the hula hoop, and Tim and I were like, that's probably the only company we would feel good about--
Tim Heidecker: And Ford.
Eric Wareheim: And Ford. The Taurus.
Tim Heidecker: My dad used to sell Fords, so it wouldn't be a big stretch for me.
Eric Wareheim: We did Absolut Vodka because we knew it was going to be an awesome video.
That was an actual ad?
Tim Heidecker: Oh yeah. We're capitalists. We know that our show is funded by products and advertisers. We have certain limits; we probably wouldn't advertise for McDonalds, but. . .it's all. . ..we just call it as we see it.
Eric Wareheim: We like to blur the line, though. We did this Papa John's thing. . .
Tim Heidecker: What's funny is we talked to this friend of my wife's, and he could not understand what the difference would have been if we had been sponsored by Papa John's versus not sponsored. My wife and I were trying to explain to him that it's a world of difference. If Papa John's was out there paying us to do it, it wouldn't be funny. It's funny because we're doing it on our own.
Eric Wareheim: Just like the way it's funny that we spent almost a month making [unauthorized] Shrek 3 ads.
Tim Heidecker: It's the best thing we've ever done.
Eric Wareheim: You can check it out on our website under "Videos". We had some time off, we just made 15 or 20 ads, viral videos promoting the movie.
Tim Heidecker: It was the week of the movie coming out. If you were in LA during that time, you were just bombarded by Shrek 3, Shrek the Third ads. Everywhere. We said we should do a whole ad campaign, as if it were an independent film. "I just want to tell you guys, that there's a new movie coming out this week. It is the best. You gotta go check it out. I'm gonna be first in line."
Eric Wareheim: We brought in weird sponsors like Moviefone, AT&T, and a lot of people were like, "You are sellouts." It's pretty straight. You need to watch maybe a couple of them to get it.
What other projects are you guys working on?
Eric Wareheim: We're doing a bunch of our dream projects right now. For example, we're doing a show called "Check It Out with Dr Steve Brule," which is Steve's own show.
When's that coming out?
Eric Wareheim: We're shooting one this summer, and we're shooting some this fall, so maybe late 08'-early '09. We're doing a game show on Adult Swim called Neil Hamburger's Big Ball.
Tim Heidecker: We've built a company [Abso Lutely Productions] such that if Zach [Galifianakis] or Bob [Odenkirk] or somebody wants to produce something, they can come to us and we can facilitate that. We have a studio, we have cameras, we have editors, we have shooters. That's fun, too, to be like little entrepreneurial guys that have good people around them, and we can help with ideas. It's nice to be able to go, "Do you have any ideas, do you want to do a show? We'll help out."
We've had some casual offers to do things for other places, but at the end of the day, the money doesn't change, and you just have to answer to some idiot, whereas, you can answer to Mike Lazzo [the head of production at Adult Swim], who'll basically tell us, 'Do what you guys want.'
So they really give you carte blanche to do whatever you want?
Eric Wareheim: Almost, yeah. We pitched the Tim and Eric Awesome Show to a bunch of networks that all said no. Actually, MTV said yes. But all of our creative meetings with them were so horrible, and so stifling. . .
They wanted, like, Lindsay Lohan to guest star?
Eric Wareheim: They wanted celebrities, they wanted parodies. For MTV, we got pitched an idea: Do a Paris Hilton parody with little dogs. And do a 50 Cent parody. That was a horrible breakfast.
Tim Heidecker: The food was good.
Wait, what was it that Adult Swim wouldn't run? You said that they let you do almost anything.
Eric Wareheim: We made episode called "Getting it Done With Richard Dunn" and Tanese Gray, and it was a talk show, just those two for a full 11.5 minutes. And we loved it, it was very dry, very slow, and they just weren't willing to sacrifice an Awesome Show for that.
Tim Heidecker: That said, the end conversation was, 'If you guys really want to do it, you can do it. It's your show.' But it was one of those strong suggestions.
Eric Wareheim: And these guys are smart. I mean, they had the vision of us in the first place. So we take their notes. We trust them.
Tim Heidecker: But in the end, Eric and I think that in the course of fifty episodes, we want to do a couple of those. Because it is only an eleven-minute show, and you can withstand anything for eleven minutes. And I think our audience, if they didn't like it, which I think a lot of them would, would forgive us, and appreciate that we need to. . . Lazzo said, you need to do those shows, you need to stretch, and make yourselves happy and not make the same thing.
What's inspiring you these days?
Eric Wareheim: I just got a DVD for my birthday. All I asked from my friends was to give me five things that they love - music or DVDs. I got five new bands that I'd never heard of, and I was like, "Holy shit." One is Yeasayer. Another one is YellowFever.
Tim Heidecker: I've been getting into magic lately. Watching magic performances. I've been going to this place where they have magic in LA. They're really good close-up magicians who do card tricks and rings and stuff. And they're, like, really the best there are. I've met a few of them. It's a skill set or art form that has nothing to do with what I do. . . but it's equally mystifying, and something that I can watch and be like a child. I'll tell you one thing I saw that I can't explain. He took three people with rings like my ring [points to wedding band] and he connected them so that they were like, rings, in there. He did it an room like this room. I know the, I like, I mean I met the guy, and he's like a normal guy--
Eric Wareheim: [To Heidecker] You mean, like, he's not a supernatural guy?
Tim Heidecker: He had these three rings, that were connected, and we put them in our hands. The three of them were connected, looped together.
And you saw that they were the same rings?
Tim Heidecker: Yes! There were three distinct kinds of rings.
Eric Wareheim: It's blowing his mind right now.
Tim Heidecker: It still blows my mind--it was like you were watching the work of the devil.
What's the name of the place?
Tim Heidecker: It's called the Magic Castle.
And who's the ring guy?
Tim Heidecker: His name is Derek DelGaudio. He's like the number-one close-up magician. And he's like 24 years old. Just a real whiz kid.
I'm glad I could think of something, cause I felt really depressed that there was nothing interesting in my life. Even though that is a lame thing to be interested in.
Eric Wareheim: It's not like we have fucking office jobs where we're craving inspiration. After I go to work, I come home, I don't want to do anything, I don't want to see music, I don't want to watch movies, I just want to zone out and pet my cat; it's so intense what I do. On the weekends I ride my motorcycle around and sit and have coffee, by myself.
You guys have been doing a lot of interviews lately.
Tim Heidecker: I know, I know. . . We have a hard time saying no, because we need every one of them. The only one I said no to was Kevin Smith's website. It was just a point of principle. I'm just anti-Kevin Smith.
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