Joshua Oppenheimer on The Act of Killing

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Joshua Oppenheimer on <i>The Act of Killing</i>

Though director Joshua Oppenheimer filmed in the late '00s, the story of The Act of Killing begins in 1965, with General Suharto's overthrow of Indonesia's first post-colonial government and the subsequent purge of ethnic Chinese, Communists, and intellectuals.

To distance itself from the genocide, the government created by the coup turned to Pemuda Pancasila, a paramilitary group, to carry out the executions. Pancasila's members are widely regarded as "gangsters" in Indonesian society, muscle for the government when it operates outside the reach of the law. The Act of Killing takes as its main subject Anwar Congo, a Pancasila member and death squad leader who claims personal responsibility for more than 1,000 of the 1 million dead.

We spoke with Oppenheimer last week.

Oppenheimer.
twitter.com/JoshuaOppenheim
Oppenheimer.

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Landmark Sunshine Cinema

143 E. Houston St.
New York, NY 10002

Category: Movie Theaters

Region: Lower East Side

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The Act of Killing
Directed by Joshua Oppenheimer
Drafthouse Films
Opens July 19, Landmark Sunshine

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See also: The Act of Killing Is a Masterpiece of Murder and the Movies

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To what extent do you position this film as an intervention?

That's a really good way of putting it. I began this project in collaboration with a community of survivors. They started by sending me on these missions to meet the perpetrators who they thought killed their relatives, because they didn't know how their loved ones had died. They were taken away, and they never returned. And then as I encountered the perpetrators, they were boasting, they were proud, and I realized it was as though I had walked into Nazi Germany 40 years after the Holocaust, and the Nazis were still in power.

As we continued filming, we were getting stopped by the army, we were being arrested, were having our equipment and tapes taken. I had this feeling: "Should we not do this? Is it too dangerous? Is it too sensitive?" And the Indonesian human rights community, such as they are, and the survivors themselves said, "You must continue. You're onto something. We need a film that unmasks this regime, that exposes the nature of this regime."

I wanted to create a space for people to say the things that they've been to afraid to say yet already know. So in fact, it was precisely a kind of intervention of how a whole regime has told stories to justify what they've done and to build a normality on the basis of terror and lies. I think I never really dared hope that it would make that impact. Maybe I hoped it would make an impact internationally, and then the Indonesians would take notice.

The film challenges the audience to work through and weigh multiple narratives, and even the nature of narrative itself, all at once. Where does that complexity spring from?

The film broadly is about how we tell stories to create our reality, and how as a crucial part of that we tell stories to escape from our most bitter and indigestible truths—the parts of that reality we don't want to face. I think one of the stories we tell—probably the dominant story we tell, all of us—is that the world is divided up into good guys and bad guys. It's the Star Wars story. We tell it again and again, and it underpins almost every story we tell. I think every time we tell it, it's a lie.

The word in Indonesian for "gangster" really does come from [the English for] "free man." [Anwar and his friends are] not just saying that. They fall back on that to justify, to give a kind of slightly heroic nuance to Pemuda Pancasila, this alternative power structure that Indonesian politicians and businessmen and the whole regime uses to do their dirty work.

How do these men justify their crimes?

The tragedy implicit [in this film] is that once you've corrupted yourself, by taking one life through a kind of an original sin, the justification demands further evil. You then have to suppress the survivors so that they don't challenge your version of the story, so that they don't accuse you. That then legitimates stealing their land, shaking them down, extorting them, because you've blamed them for what happened to them. And it demands, most chillingly, that you kill again if called upon. If you don't do it, if you refuse, it's tantamount to admitting it was wrong the first time. There's this downward spiral of evil and corruption ,which creates this terrifying world.

Anwar and his friends approach the re-enactment as a celebration of their deeds. How do you maneuver or maybe reconcile the bald-faced bragging and Anwar's growing guilt over his part in the mass killings?

When I was entrusted by this community of survivors to film these justifications, to film these boastings, I was trying to expose and interrogate the nature of impunity. Boasting about killing was the right material to do that with because it is a symptom of impunity. You can't dance in the place where you've killed 1,000 people if you've been told this was the wrong thing to do. To do that you have to be in utter denial about what you've done. That denial is fed by impunity, and there is an insistence on that denial and a demonstration of impunity at the same time.

Boasting is not a sign of lack of remorse, but its opposite. That's the paradox in the film. Anwar says he's a good dancer because he's drinking and taking drugs and going out dancing to forget. His conscience is there from the beginning. He's desperately trying to escape the real meaning of what he's done, and every re-enactment is an effort to escape the meaning of what he's done, just in the way he used cinema to escape what he'd done at the time of the killings.

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2 comments
DrewHunkins
DrewHunkins

I saw this documentary a couple of days ago, it's astonishing, absolutely incredible.  One of the most disturbing films ever made, but nevertheless a seminal documentary that should be viewed by all.   

An excellent book that contains vast passages documenting the genocide committed by Suharto and his Washington supported gangster thugs is a book called 'Year 501: the Conquest Continues' by Noam Chomsky. 

baba1
baba1

Of course, there is no mention of President Eisenhower's role in this genocide, by allowing (instigating?) Suharto to overthrow President Soekarno.

 

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